Closing of Orman Avenue

[Loren Swelk]

Closing of the 900 block of W Orman Avenue to all traffic to cut down on gang activity? Come on Dr. Garvin, you can do better than that...how about closing it down so the Martians (or the Venusians for that matter) will have a place to land and register for fall classes. They both make about as much sense. I don't bother my city councilman very often, but Mr. Thurston will hear from me on this one.

[large]

Dr. Garvin wants a closed campus, and a more "University like" setting . .

IF "gang activities" exist at PCC, closing Orman and all the streets around it aren't going to solve the problem . .

[Buster.Tripp@Gmail.com]

Closeing down One street then closeing another is not going to solve the problem. City council has to have some b---s and a few more Cops on the street. We have discussed the Gang Problem till we are blue in the face.
Send City council some of our ideas. Where are the Parents and where is the People of Pueblo? Somebody has to care

[Dean.Barnett]

Dr. Garvin wants a closed campus, and a more "University like" setting . . No such claims are included in the Chieftain article (http://www.chieftain.com/articles/2008/07/08/news/local/doc4872f6687a029490636778.txt).

IF "gang activities" exist at PCC, closing Orman and all the streets around it aren't going to solve the problem . .From the Chieftain's coverage:

Garvin presented a security report noting increasing gang activity, graffiti and even gunplay on campus and said that Orman provides an easy access and makes it impossible to lock down the campus during emergencies.

[Dean.Barnett]

Closeing down One street then closeing another is not going to solve the problem. City council has to have some b---s and a few more Cops on the street. We have discussed the Gang Problem till we are blue in the face.
Send City council some of our ideas. Where are the Parents and where is the People of Pueblo? Somebody has to careJudy Weaver agrees (http://www.chieftain.com/articles/2008/07/08/news/local/doc4872f6687a029490636778.txt) with you.

District 1 Councilwoman Judy Weaver, who represents the West Side and Hyde Park neighborhoods, said that while adding more police might help the problem, she still wants to know how they will be deployed and that officers will work during hours when the most crime happens.

She also suggested more satellite stations and noted that the city will need help from parents to make things work.

"No matter how many police officers we have there is still the issue of personal and family responsibility," Weaver said. "I'm always dismayed to hear about children walking around at night. But where are their parents? It's going to take all of us."

[large]

Dunno, I taught at PCC for 5 years and never heard about any gang activity, and I just believe he wants vacation of Orman through the campus for esthetics more than anything else. It would make the area the street occupies a "Plaza" that would tie the north and south campuses together . .

He wants a "University Feel" to the school . . again, it's gonna be "Feel Good" at the City and State's Expense . .

The "gang" thing is likely the "scare" all Politicians and others with agendas have learned to use, and everyone in Pueblo seems to be scared of Gangstas". Make the City Council wring it's hands a little more . .

I'm in favor of having an "Open Season" on the little bastards! With no bag limit !

Whaddya think about that, polly?

[Dean.Barnett]

Dunno, I taught at PCC for 5 years 5 years ending when?

[large]

Why would you care?

And who the F--- are you to ask?

[Dean.Barnett]

Why would you care?

And who the F--- are you to ask?Me? Just another guy in the public forum. Like you.

I asked because your previous comment implies knowledge others don't have access to:

Dunno, I taught at PCC for 5 years and never heard about any gang activity, and I just believe he wants vacation of Orman through the campus for esthetics more than anything else. It would make the area the street occupies a "Plaza" that would tie the north and south campuses together . .Now, if that 5 years ended in 1980, obviously your implied claim to authoritative knowledge is open to question. If your tenure (to use the word loosely) ended last week, your credibility goes up.

So which is it? Do you know Dr. Garvin, and thus have some legitimate claim to inside information, or are you referring to personal experience that predates his arrival?

When did you work at PCC? Simple question, isn't it?

[large]

I left just prior to Gavin's hiring, if you must know..Dunno why you ask, you seem to think you know a lot about me . .

Apparently you don't . . but I've offered to let you get to know me personally . . I think you're just as smooth as Ken . . .

[Dean.Barnett]

I left just prior to Gavin's hiring, if you must know..OK. So you left after the unfortunate death of Mike Davis in 2006? 2 years ago? So that means this is just your post-employment opinion:
Dunno, I taught at PCC for 5 years and never heard about any gang activity, and I just believe he wants vacation of Orman through the campus for esthetics more than anything else. It would make the area the street occupies a "Plaza" that would tie the north and south campuses together . .

He wants a "University Feel" to the school . . again, it's gonna be "Feel Good" at the City and State's Expense . .Even allowing for differences between calendar and academic dates, your speaking out about what Dr. Gavin meant is no more than your uninformed personal opinion - despite the clear implication from your post that you had some sort of inside information not available to either readers of this forum or the Chieftain journalist.

Tsk Tsk. Lying is are never a good tactic, neither is presuming an old contract teaching job at a community college is an open conduit to policy decisions that are taken years after that contract expires.

Geez, that means you're just like the rest of us - you don't know any more than the Chieftain publishes.

Don't know anything about "any gang activity"? Why would you? I can't imagine your contract specified "spray painting, pinstripe, respirator masks, gang activity, and drive-by shooting."

[Loren Swelk]

I will offer a little more information, and I have to say I agree with Large. I live right across the street from campus. I sit on my front porch in the morning, read the the Chieftain and enjoying a cup of coffee, while watching the students roll in. I walk my dogs and jog on campus almost every evening and also I have taught there on occasion, In fact I introduced Dr. Davis to a number of faculty and staff upon his arrival. if there is gang activity and graffitti running rampant I certainly have not seen it. I have seen no work crews out covering up tagging, certainly not heard gun fire and also have not denoted ANY increase in police or sheriff activity. The security police continue their cruise around campus 24/7 and the maintenance crews are out at 6 in the morning adjusting the sprinklers. The gang activity report is just a ruse to scare our local officials. I would be interested to see if the police and sheriff reports denote an increase in gang activity or tagging. I think not. Orman is a major street and the crossings are clearly marked and signs are placed in the street. That certainly appears to do the trick as far as traffic flow. If Dr. Garvin wishes to close Orman he should state the real reason, not raise a false flag concerning the safety of students, faculty and staff.

[Red]

I took a few classes at PCC back in 2002-2003 and there was always gang graffiti in the bathrooms. It'd get cleaned up and a few days later it was back.

I was on campus just a few days ago and it seems like the problem is even worse. Graffiti on some of the walls in the hallways, on posters, bathrooms, etc.

Now compare that to CSU-P. I saw a little gang graffiti while I was attending classes there, but 95% of the graffiti pertained to fraternities, sexual jokes or remarks about a professor.

The other issue not really being discussed much is the safety of students crossing Orman. They have those "State Law" crosswalk signs out, but they aren't heeded very often. I've seen cars go through there in excess of 50 MPH. At CSU-P, you can walk from building to building to building without having to worry about getting plowed over. Closing Orman seems like a good move, if just for the safety factor.

[Loren Swelk]

Red, I agree with you on one point, the speeding on Orman Ave. Of course the speeding on Pitkin and on Cleveland is just as bad. As for the "gang grafitti" in the bathrooms, grafitti has been on bathroom walls since there were bathrooms and as far as in the hallways this is the first I have heard of it and I am still close to a number of PCC staff and administrators. Thanks for your post.

[large]

First of all, there you go again, calling someone a liar . . God may get angry at you for that . . and I don't think a wuss like you would want that . . or could stand the repercussions . .

And . . during my tenure there, I had quite a few "Gang members", felons on work release, and parolees in my classes . . Gang activities haven't changed in 25 years, and like it or not, the same people are involved now, that were involved then . . plus the kids of those guys . . I know a hell of a lot of 'em . . Do you think PCC recruits students from the achievers list or the Mensa club? They take all that either desire to learn or need to learn, and it crosses all kinds of economic and ethnic classes . . There is no "Gangmember" Box on the applications a student has to fill out.

Gangs on campus though? Some Gang Members, sure, but not "Gang Activities" . It's obvious you have little or no secondary education, because, if you had, then you'd realize that even a "gangster' is intelligent enough to understand he cannot gain the benefit of the institution (be it no more than the available financial aid, which many are there for) or actually learn how to do something, and understands the ruleset to maintain a "Learning Atmosphere" . . Something that always impressed me . .

Also, dipsh*t, I maintain contact with several of the instructors I worked with during my time there . . and there's been no feedback about "Gang Activity" or even increased vandalism and tagging on campus. As far as Red's Post about graffiti in the bathrooms . . that's a tradition that's as old as the first public bathroom. But, it's not in the halls, on the walls or signs outside . . and the instructors, at least those I know, have zero tolerance for any gang related behavior on campus or the classroom . .

I might add, again, I have qualifications to teach Automotive specialties as a "master" with a teaching certificate, and also hold an Art Certificate . . Not to mention a hundred or so hours in Hazmat, OSHA,and related courses dealing with Radiation and Heavy Metals Remediation, as well as the Law relating to them . .

You? Based upon your past here, you might hold some credit hours at "Fisking" . . Googling and perhaps "hiding" . . But nothing contributory nor constructive. Or do you have a PHD in "insult" ?

[Red]

Red, I agree with you on one point, the speeding on Orman Ave. Of course the speeding on Pitkin and on Cleveland is just as bad. As for the "gang grafitti" in the bathrooms, grafitti has been on bathroom walls since there were bathrooms and as far as in the hallways this is the first I have heard of it and I am still close to a number of PCC staff and administrators. Thanks for your post.

On Tuesday, there were a few posters/flyers up on the walls in the College Center that had gang scrawling across them. The men's bathroom on the 2nd floor had some etching done on one of the mirrors. Does it mean gangs are taking over? No. But it does mean that gang members are on campus and are marking their territory. The problem becomes a real issue when someone from a rival gang is found in that territory.

[Red]

Gangs on campus though? Some Gang Members, sure, but not "Gang Activities".

Sorry, but I disagree. Marking their territory is gang activity. Assaulting a rival gang member is gang activity. These things have happened at PCC. Stating otherwise is flat out wrong.

It's obvious you have little or no secondary education, because, if you had, then you'd realize that even a "gangster' is intelligent enough to understand he cannot gain the benefit of the institution (be it no more than the available financial aid, which many are there for) or actually learn how to do something, and understands the ruleset to maintain a "Learning Atmosphere" . . Something that always impressed me . .

In college, you're 100% right. Very few problems in class. Outside of class? In the hallway or parking lot? Another story. But in our public schools? Hell no. The learning atmosphere doesn't mean %$^& once someone feels the slightest bit disrespected. Thankfully, it doesn't take much to get these kids expelled or sent to Keating.


As far as Red's Post about graffiti in the bathrooms . . that's a tradition that's as old as the first public bathroom. But, it's not in the halls, on the walls or signs outside . . and the instructors, at least those I know, have zero tolerance for any gang related behavior on campus or the classroom

See my response to Loren. There is most certainly stuff in the halls. Heck, a few years ago, the bus stop on Orman right across from the college center was covered in gang markings. Quite a few tables too in the Gorsich Center classrooms and that was in 2002.

[large]

Dunno, Red, in my five years there, teaching both day and night classes, I never saw an assault, or even a dust up . . and in our bathrooms, very little was ever posted on the walls. This was in the Automotive Tech area, and oversight was there but not so intense somebody couldn't get out of line if they chose . . Apparently none did.

And, while I won't name names, I had several students who were either admitted gang members, or on work release/parole for gang related offenses. I know because several times I discussed a student's on campus activities and attitude with their parole supervisor. One student was jailed and dropped out of class because of a gang related felony, but in class and on campus, the kid was a (believe it or don't) model student. Matter of fact, if he wasn't a jailbird, he was smart enough to have gotten a degree and been something . .

Some of them are quick to let you know that they're "Gang Affilliated" and want you to think they're badasses, but that's easy to get around in most cases if they want to learn something . . Usually by the second week of a semester they get the chip off their shoulder and blend in . .

As far as parking lot problems, none . . I secured the Automotive Tech area every night I had classes, and I made sure all my students either had a ride or weren't hanging in the lot after I was gone . . dunno how many times I've taken somebody home because their mom, dad, wife or girlfriend didn't show up . . coupla times I thought I was running a Taxi service.

An impression that seemed to be consistent with those who implied by word or action that they were "gang affilliated" was this, according to the older ones, the younger, 13-16 year old "gangsters" were the "Gunners" The median age of the "Gangsters" in my classes was around 20 to 30, and most had done hard time, although I did have a couple of younger ones . . 17 and up . . Most, I felt, were trying to get out of where a lot of bad decisions had put them, but I had one, a 27 year old, who was really good at some things, but couldn't read the numbers on a paint can . . this guy existed because of the Gangs and he came to school because he could get up to $1500 in financial aid for every semester . . He said as much when I quizzed him about needing remedial reading . . Incidentally, he passed both remedial reading classes at PCC with a C . . before I got him! And to me, he was not only respectful, but courteous to a fault . . Go figger . .

And . . my classes weren't made up of gangsters. . probably 2 or 3 out of 20-22 students, sometimes just one . . so, as I said, social pressure was there to blend and learn. And they seemed to.

[Sandra]

May I chime in here?

Large wrote:
Dunno, Red, in my five years there, teaching both day and night classes, I never saw an assault, or even a dust up . .

That doesn't mean it can't or won't happen.

Red, I'm enjoying your posts. I'd like to see whoever is doing this hauled into a classroom and educated.

[Sandra]

Oh, one more thing -- someone mentioned the safety of the students. Doesn't Orman kind of go right through campus? Just like Cascade Ave in Colorado Springs goes through CC campus? CC students are always getting hit by cars, how much longer before that happens here?

I suspect gang activity isn't the only reason for closing Orman.

[large]

Regarding a street running through the school.

Not to be a wisea$$, but by the time a kid is old enough to attempt to gain a secondary education, he should know how to cross a street safely.

That being said, the worst offenders of speeding through the area are usually the students themselves . . something I observed quite a few times . .

BUT . . if Dr. gavin wants the street vacated, probably anything said here isn't going to affect much . . .

[Dean.Barnett]

You? Based upon your past here, you might hold some credit hours at "Fisking" . . Googling and perhaps "hiding" . . But nothing contributory nor constructive. Or do you have a PHD in "insult" ?Get over it. Pretentious blow hards often have trouble dealing with other points of view.

I'm quite content to read posts from contributors speaking within their areas of expertise. I learn a lot from those folks.

Some have trouble dealing with posts by people seeking to speak for people they've never met. You know, like large speaking for Dr. Gavin, someone he's never met, and whose views he doesn't understand. Nonetheless, large does put himself out as an expert without the encumbrance of showing credentials. When tasked with showing evidence of expertise, well. . .

It turns out that it's lot's easier to express an opinion than justify a position. And it's much simpler to insult an opponent than to explain a rationale.

[Sandra]

It's not so much a matter of "knowing how to cross the street" as it is a matter of drivers learning how to drive and yield the right of way to pedestrians.

I wonder if an overhead walkway might help solve that problem, but then again, that would be just another graffiti magnet, why should hundreds of thousands of dollars be spent on something only to have it destroyed overnight by taggers?

[Loren Swelk]

Why doesn't PCC request to make that one block of W. Orman a school zone? The penalties for speeding in a school zone are quite severe. Closing of Orman avenue because of traffic safety concerns is a lot more believable than closing because "increased gang activity." I agree that the majority of speeders are students and a 6 point speeding ticket should have an effect on future speeding.

[large]

You know, like large speaking for Dr. Gavin, someone he's never met, and whose views he doesn't understand.

There you go again, professor, jumping to conclusions . . I have never said I haven't MET the man, I just said I hadn't taught under him . .

As for speaking for him, you seem to be doing all the talking there . .

As a former planner, we were part of the advisory contingent that assembled the pros and cons for things like proposals for Street or Alleyway vacations, and the reasons varied from the sublime to the ridiculous. Often, reasons for vacation of a right of way or easement was given as safety issues, when actually, they were for things like esthetics and consolidation of properties . . Which, if packaged and presented well, usually (not always) got the nod.

In the case of PCC, every few years, since the fifties, vacation of Orman Avenue through the college proper, has been brought up, and usually, the issue of safety was tied to campus consolidation . . I suppose with the inclusion of potential "Gang Suppression" with the usual safety and esthetics will (or might) give P & Z cause to recommend closure . .

Regarding the graffiti . . Again, I don't know how many students are really involved in that dark art . . IF . . you take the time to look at graffiti in particular areas you'll often see the same design on everything the dumb sh*t can reach, from Bay State and Routt to the City Park, etc . . Again and this is just general, but it came from more than one "Gangster" that, most tagging is done by the younger members and in a lot of cases, Jr. High School Wannabees . .

I honestly don't believe that many Students are involved with the tagging that goes on, and really, there isn't a lot . . Campus security is pretty good. I suppose it could be better, but closing Orman through the campus won't make it any easier to patrol, and might actually create bigger problems involving after dark security . . who knows?

And according to the cops, quite a few of the "working" taggers aren't gangsters at all but kids (ages optional) literally in competition with each other . . The "Kilroy was here" concept, but with stylized symbols . .

Whatever . .

Regarding pedestrians . . Granted, a marked crosswalk should be honored by drivers, but it works both ways . . You have to have better sense than to step out in front of an approaching car unless the driver shows some intent to slow or stop . . A pedestrian can be "Dead Right" . . And, a lot of those who cross Orman don't go to the marked crosswalks, they "meander" from where ever they stepped off the curb and, if you're not in a crosswalk, you can be roadkill . . That goes pretty much for all the crosswalks in the state . .

[Loren Swelk]

Ah yes, the father of all tagging. So few remember;

[Sandra]

Loren wrote:
Why doesn't PCC request to make that one block of W. Orman a school zone? The penalties for speeding in a school zone are quite severe. Closing of Orman avenue because of traffic safety concerns is a lot more believable than closing because "increased gang activity." I agree that the majority of speeders are students and a 6 point speeding ticket should have an effect on future speeding.

You're joking, right? I mean, think about it -- this is a town where some people owe over $600 in parking fines and have warrants out for their arrest, yet are not deterred from illegal parking.

This is also a town where a large number of drivers are operating a motor vehicle without license to do so.

What makes you think, then, that a $60 speeding ticket (or whatever the going rate is) or having points removed is going to deter drivers on Orman?

I think the City has found itself in the position of having to weigh the many problems together along with what would be beneficial to the community. There are multiple reasons for the decision to close Orman. Had anyone had any better ideas, then it seems to me that those should have been presented to the city as an alternative to the idea of closing the street before that decision had to be made.

[Sandra]

Loren, pardon my asking, but just how old are you, anyway? I'm thinking that if you remember Kilroy, you must be about what, 70? 60?

Kilroy was a WWII era (1939-1945) cultural icon that remained popular through about 1955 or thereabouts, so if you actually remember him, you must be older than, say, Large. lol

[Loren Swelk]

I can tell you for a fact that before Dr. Garvin sprung the closing idea on the city council, he did not poll the neigborhood home owners. I get a mailer from the college telling me about street closings(tomorow for example) or for special events, but not for this one. Also Sandra, you mentioned the "frogger" problem on N. Nevada, I read the Gazette and I can't recall CC students being hit or killed in a inordinate number. And also, (and I can tell your this from first hand knowledge, one of my children was involved) while you might be able to ignore a parking ticket or six to ignore a moving violation will bring the wrath of a number of agencies down on you in a hurry. And lastly, I can remember television coming to Pueblo, Highway 85-87 coming in on Elizabeth and going out on Lake Avenue before I-25. But I am young enough to have had draft lottery number 177 when they went up to 179 in 1970, unfortunately.

[Sandra]

Loren, I lived in Colorado Springs for 30+ years before moving to Pueblo, and over the years, I can tell you that the problem with Cascade has been a problem the entire time I lived there. There have been many students over the years being seriously injured and I'm not sure of how many deaths there have been during that thirty years, I do know of one.

Having driven that road many times I can tell you that more often than not the students just step out into traffic without looking, they just take it for granted that the cars speeding down the road 10ft away can miraculously stop. A bigger issue is that it's two lanes both north and south bound, and students stepping into traffic aren't necessarily visible to someone in the left lane because they're blinded by the car positioned in the right lane.

Now at CC there are plenty of crosswalks and pedestrian crossing signs, but the danger is in that first, the crosswalks are not situated at the corners where the students can benefit from traffic lights. Crosswalks in the middle of a block on a busy street are a hazard to pedestrians of any age. And while the speed limit may be lowered for those areas, too many people seem to forget that the speed limit is lower there - this is the same problem that exists in the school crossing zones for elementary schools.

It's a two fold problem, as Large pointed out people should know how to cross the street by the time they're in college, but at the same time, drivers should be more alert and should know how to drive.

I don't know whether it would do any good at this point to offer any ideas to City Council concerning this matter, but it couldn't hurt to contact the city council person for your district (or maybe even that one) anyway, just to see what they have to say about it.

Do you follow the City Council agendas at all on the City's website? You can usually tell by reading those what kinds of things are planned for the next city council meeting, and some things like this may take more than one council session to resolve. If it's a matter being brought before the council, it's usually written on the agenda, and while it may be short notice initially, reading the agenda is a great way to find out about local issues being brought before the council in case you have any kind of comment or concern, which you can pass on to your council person or the council person of the district involved, even if by phone call.

If you visit http://www.pueblo.us, look for the link in the left column that says, "City Council Meeting & Agenda Information". There you can find minutes to previous meetings and agendas for previous meetings and upcoming ones too.

I hope that helps! :)

[Loren Swelk]

Sandra, I will certainly defer to your experience concerning CC. As far as Orman goes, after reading the editorial in today's Chieftain, it sounds like it is a done deal. That is a common problem, by the time the public finds out about an action, the smoke filled back rooms have cleared and all that is left is the pro forma action. Sad, but true. Those who believe that the council doesn't meet out of the public eye are niave to say the least. Hate to be cynical, but this is certainly as case in point.

[large]

There's a possibility, though, that the request won't pass muster because of one silly thing . . utility easement . . The street is the utility easement from Thatcher to Goodnight, I believe, and in order to receive a Vacation, the property owner has to assume the responsibility for the utilities crossing their properties and cannot build over them unless the Utilities are also vacated. That means that the State and PCC must relocate all utilities running through the easement that services other properties in the area, at their expense . .

Perhaps that's why Dr. Gavin has requested a "One Lane Street" to be able to access the campus for emergencies . . After reading the request again, this is smoke and mirrors . . emergency service to the student union bldg is off Harrison, for the tech bldg, the Parking lot north, The Admin bldg, Arthur, and the South annex, from the upper parking lot South of the building or the parking lot West off Arthur . . . These were the instructions given the instructors when I was there, and applying logic, I see no reason to change them, so "Emergency" access is just one more pressing reason, to create a greater need than just campus esthetics . .

IF . . Dr. Gavin wants Orman vacated between Marilyn and Arthur, just say so, and quit bullsh*tting the troops . . But . . do it right, vacate it completely. Leave a golf cart path for security and assume the responsibilities any other property owner receiving the same considerations should . . PAY YOUR OWN WAY!

[Sandra]

Loren, running the city is like running a business, of course they are going to have meetings outside of "the public eye" - they call those executive sessions, and they really aren't out of the public eye, everyone knows when they are meeting for those, it's just not open to the public is all, and for very good reasons. And I'm not sure whether work sessions, like executive sessions are closed to the public, but the public is advised of when those take place as well, it's all posted on the city's website.

It's not like the city is being run by mobsters meeting in secret or anything, our City Council is made up of our elected officials doing their jobs of conducting city business, and there's plenty of it to conduct.

This doesn't mean you can't take your concerns to your Council person, you most certainly can and I trust that they take people's concerns seriously whether they are able to accommodate those concerns or not. Things don't always work out the way we think they should, and there's usually more to an issue than the general public knows. Go ahead and contact your council person and see what they have to say about it, ask questions and find out whether it's a "done deal" at this point or whether there is anything the community can do to address the situation alternatively. What's there to lose by asking?

Large, you made some interesting points, too, about the Utilities easement.

[large]

It's not like the city is being run by mobsters meeting in secret or anything,

Beg pardon? I believe there's considerable consternation about just how public the City Council's business has become . .

One day, minimal discussion, next, new law . . and we get to read about it happening and becoming history after the fact in the Chieftain . .

I've heard both sides (I know Alvin personally) but the City council is representative to the whole city, and if they meet in secret (Executive Session or Closed Workshop) to make and work out the eventual public vote, then we no longer have Representation, because, simply, we don't know how we were represented or how our particular councilman voted (or why).

Public discussion of things that affect the Public are warranted and older by far than this country and it's constitution . . .

[Sandra]

OH, come on, Large. Please tell me you're toying with me on this.

Our City Council are our elected officials. WE elected them into office. Therefore, we must have some kind of trust in them or else how is it that we elected them? It's not like they're a bunch of evil demons plotting against the city or something. There are times when they have to be able to meet away from the public in order to be able to get their work done, and executive sessions allow them to address matters that are not of a public nature (those are rare, are they not?). And then there are the work sessions, I don't know if those are public or not, but I understand that they're just work sessions where they get together and concentrate on city business.

There's more to running a city than meeting twice a month and listening to the people of the community's concerns and ideas. There are budgets to prepare and ordinances to consider, committees to create, community volunteers to recognize, municipal departments to oversee, public and intergovernmental relationships to maintain with other municipalities, issues to research and study and on and on and on and on -- if you read the charter you'll get a good idea of what City Council's job is.

The idea that closing Orman off is just an evil plot on the part of City Council against the People of Pueblo is laughable at best, and might even make a good Underdog cartoon.

[large]

Is this the only Forum relating to Pueblo and it's issues you read?

There are others and anything I said above is no more than concerns voiced by others in either those forums or voiced by many in the Pueblo Chieftain letters to the editors . . There is a petition being passed around to demand TV and more public view of Council meetings . . none of which I, personally, have been involved in, nor have I been much of an advocate of it, one way or another . . But times are a'changin' (Bob Dylan) . .

Regarding Council's responsibilities, doesn't matter, they're doing things that either affect or create policy and law that affects each and every Puebloan, either individually of collectively . . We have a right to see those discussed publicly before they become law or policy that affects us . . Remember, they're spending your money, and requiring you to conform to their ordinances . . and sometimes those acts aren't seen by a majority as "For the good of the majority" . .

As far as the vacation of right of way of Orman Avenue Between Marilyn Place and Arthur Avenue goes . . it's not an evil plot, but, consideration of the surrounding residential area and it's occupants don't seem to be a part of the factor. That and the fact that the presentation verged on "Emergency measures" regarding the feared "Gangsters" and that closure would stop the problem on campus. That's pure Bull Puckey . .

I've been there, as a planner advising zoning and council, and as a representative of an Architect requesting a vacation for a client . . seen both sides of it and had to answer questions pertaining to it on both sides . . There's no conspiracy, but council must also try to create good neighbors, and closing a neighborhood access street to a number of residents without asking their consent or input isn't exactly how that's done . .

Watch where you're going . . you're acting the surrogate part, and it doesn't become you . .

[Loren Swelk]

Sandra,
I don't believe that more than two city council persons can even have lunch together without an announcement to the public of a meeting. Also the executive sessions are to discuss personnel matters or certain PEDCO matters and nothing else, certainly not to discuss the closing of a major thoroughfare between Lincoln and Cleveland. The closing is going to start a drag race straight down Arthur from the upper parking lot. There are two stop signs between Orman and Abriendo both a little difficult to see and I can foresee 45mph through the stop signs now. This whole thing needs public meetings and more massaging than it is getting now.

[Sandra]

Large, how many of the people on this or any other forum have actually taken time to discuss things with their City Council person or even tune in to city council meetings?

And Loren, I pose the same question to you. You both raise some very good questions and you seem to have some good concerns, have you considered contacting any of the members of City Council to discuss this with them?

Truly concerned citizens should be involved citizens as much as they can be. Even if you feel that your concerns will fall on deaf ears (which I don't think will happen), at least sharing those shows your own interest in the subject, and that's a good place to start.

Large, I agree with you about the right to see things discussed publicly and so on, but unless the public stands up and says, "this is what we want" how is anyone supposed to know what the public wants?

Loren, you stated, "This whole thing needs public meetings and more massaging than it is getting now." Is that going to happen if citizens don't take the initiative to convey that message to City Council?

I certainly agree that whenever there is a road closing issue, the residents of the vicinities affected should be able to meet and discuss matters with the powers that be before decisions are made. Perhaps now is the time to contact your Council person and communicate your desire for that.

There comes a time when people who are feeling "left out" have to take the initiative to involve themselves by contacting their elected officials. That's part of what our elected officials are there for, people in the affected area have the right to know what's going on and should be able to voice their opinions and ask questions - to be able to come to an understanding and help work out a viable solution.

If we just sit here and complain about what's going on around us, that's meaningless. But if we at least show some initiative, then our complaints become legitimate concerns to be addressed. Complaints are farts in the wind, but taking initiative to turn complaints into addressable concerns causes voices to be heard.

[Loren Swelk]

Sandra,
I am on first name terms with about half of the council and I call or email when I feel I have something to contribute. my councilman (Randy Thurston) always replies and on occasion we have agreed to disagree and others I have convinced him or he has convinced me. Ray Aguilera always calls back. I email the rest because I have never received a response from any of them. I have met Mike Occhiato many times at social or business functions and every time it is like I am brand new to him, I gave up on him. Back in the day I served on a city council and as mayor of another community in Colorado and I have empathy for all of them. However the five of us were a lot more responsive to our constituency, not just to a "annointed few".

[Sandra]

Loren, so what do they say about the Orman issue? Or have you asked anyone yet? Are they going to get that community involved in this and hear what they have to say, at least? Are there any solutions being offered?

In Colorado Springs they've tried to have Cascade Ave closed through CC many times, so I see this issue as very similar. And, might I add, Cascade is STILL open. Or, it was last time I was there, which has been a while...lol....

[large]

And I certainly have no qualms in calling and talking to either Randy or Packrat (Aguilera) who sometimes doesn't call me back because I still call him by the nickname he had in High School . .

And, as Loren has said, sometimes we agree, and sometimes we agree to disagree . . I also see several of them at different social events, although I never bring up an issue in that venue unless they approach it first . . Council members, like other professionals, should be given respect enough to not talk shop socially . . call 'em on Monday, y'know . .

Problem is . . "Joe Common" doesn't often have a clue of how to contact their Councilman, they don't travel in any of the same circles, and as often as not, they have no idea of how to present a subject were they given time in front of the council (or an individual member) . . That's perhaps one of the reasons they have limited public comment at their meetings . .

Take Alvin, for instance. normally, a nice guy, great intentions, but he's a rabid Democrat/Libertarian (?) and he's madder than Hell and he's not gonna take it anymore . . so it doesn't take much to get him loud and off track . . And as often as he's stood there on the same rant, he can't get it down to a civil 5 minutes . . Not to mention, the subject matter ought to be the subject (or subjects) on the agenda . .

The whole thing, in review, is this. The City Council, just as any other governmental legislative body, functions on the public record . . It would be nice to know about a lot of it before the fact that it became law is history rather than debate . . .

Regarding Cascade Ave. in Colorado Springs . . if you have been there more than twice and gone up or down Cascade, you can readily see that you'd be messing with major traffic patterns that don't really have ready solutions . . Orman might be a little simpler, but as long as it's a feeder and is a major access/egress point to the Aberdeen neighborhood, one of three, actually, so argue if you want (anybody) but by the old planners handbook, closure isn't recommended . . Unless PCC and the State would give back some of the South parking lot and extend Adams . . at their expense . .

[none]

Closeing down One street then closeing another is not going to solve the problem. City council has to have some b---s and a few more Cops on the street. We have discussed the Gang Problem till we are blue in the face.
Send City council some of our ideas. Where are the Parents and where is the People of Pueblo? Somebody has to care
apparently 'the people of pueblo' have spoken in the form of graffiti.

[large]

back to the thread at hand . . apparently Dr. Gavin's proposal has met with the same skepticism that I have displayed, about the Vacating of a right of way having anything much to do with "Crime control" . . by those doing the current approving . . apparently some on P & Z thinks along the same lines . . or at least doesn't believe the request to be quite valid with those reasons attached . .

just echoing a post on another forum . .

[Loren Swelk]

Of which other forum do you speak Large? Good radio spot by the way.

[Sandra]

I asked one of our Council members about this today and found out that first, it's not a "done deal" yet, there's a process, and this hasn't even been put on the agenda yet. Once it's on the agenda there are two hearings, and people can present their questions, ideas, and concerns. At that time the city can either decide on the issue or give it more time for consideration.

So this is a good time for interested parties to take the initiative to get involved, ask questions and present your concerns and ideas.

[large]

Chuck Pelto's at:

www.pueblog.us/

among others . . but it's a good site . .

Thanx fer th' compliment . . Nick was goofy enough to want me to do that . .

And Sandra, the city council doesn't do anything until P & Z has their say so . . and either justifies it or kills it . . The council acts on their advice and oversight in those matters . .

[Sandra]

Large, if the people of the city really feel that City Council isn't doing their job or not doing it to the satisfaction of the people, then the people need to vote new members onto the council.

I do not feel that our City Council are the wayward souls some people would like to believe. P&Z has their job to do, yes, but the voices of the citizens do matter. The problem is, if citizens aren't willing to take the time to address their concerns before the council, then what else do you expect the council to do? They aren't mind readers. It takes more than voicing complaints on a forum to make one's voice heard in the ranks, you know that.

[large]

I don't think you have understood much of what has been discussed as a "process", Sandra. First, Dr. Gavin is using the panic and sky is falling presentation to gain a decision by P & Z, then eventually, unless the surrounding residents (like Loren) convince both P & Z and the council it isn't a good idea . . which is also part of the process . . The street might be vacated . . or not . .

Second, certain people aren't happy with the Council's appearance of operating behind closed doors, with the public being the last to know . . And they are passing around a petition to put council meetings back on TV. I don't know all the details, nor do I care . . however, Council has given some of their constituents the impression that Queen Judy and her court doesn't like to be seen in public, except for re-election . .

Also . . I might remind you, complaints on a forum is generally where a "groundswell" starts . . a smart leader keeps his ear to the ground, and the internet is the new ground . . Remember if this type of thing is what helps elect Presidents, do you think City Council members are exempt?

[Loren Swelk]

Sandra,
The council has done a few things that indicate that they do not desire the input of the citizenry. A couple of cases in point are the determination of the council not to broadcast, film or allow public comment during the work sessions and second is the fiasco over allowing the "public" to speak on the $2 million gift from the city council to the YMCA. That was a done deal well before the sham public hearing where opponents, including long time swim coach Bob Haley and retired Parks and Rec Director George Williams, were not allowed to speak. This council, more than past councils, has done more to ignore public input and put stumbling blocks in the way than any past councils, at least in my memory.

[Sandra]

Loren, it's my understanding that the work sessions, while public, aren't for public input, that the public's time to address the council formally is during the regular meetings every other Monday.

As for not filming public comment, aren't all the council meetings recorded and played on channel 17? Or don't those have the public's comments on them? if not, then maybe there's a broadcasting reason, such as time allotment? I do know that the public does present their issues before the council, but whether those are videotaped is not a matter of free speech, people presenting their issues before council are still speaking freely, whether it's video taped or not. They are still public meetings and if people want to hear what other people are saying but can't on channel 17, then my suggestion would be to attend the city council meetings live and in person. Video time is money, and a lot of it, especially in terms of broadcasting time.

I won't discuss the YMCA issue because that's not something I have any knowledge of.

I will say, though, that it has not been my experience that City Council isn't interested in public input. For example, what do you think the meeting on May 5 concerning the SDS issue was all about? That was a meeting called by City Council because they wanted people to be able to ask questions from the experts. That entire meeting was video taped and broadcast on Channel 17, and was chock full of public comments.

That's not the picture of a council that doesn't want the people's input.

Additionally, the City has heard the concerns of people concerning trash in the area and cleaning up the city. So what did they do? On June 9 they formed the Clean Up Pueblo Committee which works with the general public for the goal of cleaning up the city.

Again, not the picture of a council that's not interested in public input.

Most council members do return their phone calls from constituents. Another clue that council does pay attention to the people of the city.

Some don't return phone calls, but in my opinion, that speaks for them individually, not for the entire council as a whole.

I will reiterate - if you are unhappy with City Council, then elect a new one. Personally, though, I like our City Council. There's only one member of that council that I'm not that thrilled with, but even so, he is still a valuable member of the council.

Having lived in Colorado Springs for so long where the past Councils have looked down their noses at the people of the city, it's refreshing to be part of a community where the City Council members are actually people who interact with other people.

Having served on a committee that served Colorado Springs City Council under the late "Mayor Bob", I can tell you first hand about the limp-wristed handshakes I got from each and every council member except for him.

Shake hands with our current council members. Not one limp wrist among the ones I've met so far, including the one I'm not that thrilled with. They look you in the eye when they meet you and tell you they're glad to meet you and you know they mean it. In Colorado Springs they were looking off in some other direction, doing the wet-noodle shake while rolling their eyes and saying, "yeah yeah" as if they had other "more important things" on their minds. I haven't experienced that here so far, and that tells me something.

I think some of you need to let go of the "meeting in secret" conspiracy ideas and loosen up a bit. I just haven't seen any evidence of that at all.

I hope that when our current council members have all served their terms those who are elected behind them will be capable of doing such a good job and being so pleasant about it in the face of skeptical citizens.

[large]

Skeptical Citizens are what keeps Politicians honest.

Or at least forces them to hide their transgressions . .

[Sandra]

Oh, and I don't know if I should say this or not, but I think that petition being circulated is a waste of time and energy because the Council meetings are already aired on tv, so what's the purpose of the petition? To order council to do something it's already doing?? Isn't that kind of like ordering the horse out of the barn after it had already left?

[Sandra]

Large, large LARGE large......

Do you know the difference between a politician and an elected official?

lol...

[Loren Swelk]

Sandra,
I think this is one where we are going to have to agree to disagree.
Maybe Pueblo is getting too big to have that "small town feel" we used to share with our elected officials. All that I am saying is that in the last several years, steps have been taken to limit the publics access to the council, and when the Chieftain publishes an editorial about supporting council action on the closing of Orman, when public hearings or reports from P&Z have yet to been heard, then I start smelling the smoke of back room deals. Anything to do with water will of course be vetted fully in public. If not Bob Rawlings will be all over them. Remember the old adage, "never get on the wrong side of someone who buys ink by the drum".

[large]

Sandra, let me help you get your head out of the sand . . Here is some of the FACTS gleaned from another forum . .

Chris Nicoll has received permission from the City Clerk’s office to collect signatures on a citizens’ initiative change to the Pueblo City Ordinances to require City Council to have televised Public Forums during regular sessions.

As you remember, up until September of last year, such Public Forums allowed citizens to address their concerns, grievances and suggestions to the members of the City Council. These were televised for everyone who cared to watch to see. However, the City Council, arbitrarily discontinued this practice; without the benefit of public comment on said change.

In many peoples’ opinion, their decision was reprehensible. Therefore, some citizens got together, drafted a proposed change to the City Ordinances, had it reviewed and are now gathering signatures to get a proposed change before the electorate as part of the November 2008 General Election.

It is important to get 1400 signatures of bona fide registered voters who live within the Pueblo city limits by 31 July, so they can be turned into the City Clerk’s office on 1 August.

Now you know, and apparently those people don't feel that it's a waste of time and effort. And according to other sources, they seem to be having little trouble finding people to sign those petitions.

That also is part of Government and holding the politicians to acceptable standards . . Just another way of the "People" speaking . .

[none]

That also is part of Government and holding the politicians to acceptable standards . . Just another way of the "People" speaking . .
I see it more as a request for a request.
the game of politics is ironic, a comedy if you wish.

[large]

Over the years, the public, or more correctly, the Constituency, has expected far too much of their Representatives in government, and allowed them to think for themselves . . in the process, the representatives have gotten to where they think little of the people and considerably more of and about themselves and their own futures . . often abandoning any and all of the principle that led them to run for office in the first place . .

This is why we must work to elect new people into office at every chance and election . . The professional Politician or Officeholder is or should be considered an enemy of our republic, beholden only to those who financed His/Her election and re-elections, thus, unable to do the business of the people but to cater to special interests and unions . .

[none]

[...]The professional Politician or Officeholder is or should be considered an enemy of our republic, beholden only to those who financed His/Her election and re-elections, thus, unable to do the business of the people but to cater to special interests and unions . .
the disenfranchised have spoken...

[Sandra]

Large, yes, I read that, and I still think it's a bit of a crock because, as I stated, the city council meetings are already televised.

I checked out that other forum, I wasn't that impressed with the over all anti-city attitude I saw on there.

If the people of this city want city admin to pay attention to them, then the people need to take initiative and stop taking such a negative attitude against our admin. How many of us sitting here think we can do a better job? And if we can, then why aren't we?

The best way for the people to work with elected officials is to build a working relationship with them, and that can't be done if we're badmouthing them or adopting an attitude of conspiracy.

Loren, maybe we do need to agree to disagree, but I think that having been in a city admin position yourself, you of all people should realize, then, the practicality of some things and the time and involvement our council members put into running this city with a pittance for compensation. It's truly a dedicated labor of love for them. You couldn't hire people to run a city on the compensation Council gets.

[Sandra]

You all, here's what I'm trying to say - and I'm going to borrow a word from none here....

So you're disenfranchised. What are you going to do about it? Take the initiative to build working relationships with City Admin, or sit here and complain about them, expecting them to do everything for you include read your mind?

It's the people's choice, but I think nothing will be done without working together with admin. They have their jobs, we have ours, and together we're an awesome community.

[large]

Sandra, the "disenfranchisement" as someone has labeled it, has bled from the top to the bottom . .

To me it's not necessarily "disenfranchisement" but simply Politicians following their own agendas . . or the agendas of their supporters and their sponsors . .

It is common at both State and Federal levels currently and is slowly infiltrating the County and City Leadership.

You, yourself have witnessed and complained about it . . remember way back? 14 people stopped a company from bringing 115 good paying jobs to Pueblo County simply because one County Commissioner was sleeping with one of the 14. Another didn't even bother to read the proposal or any of the discussion before voting no . . They certainly paid attention to you and me . . and a lot of others . . But 14 people got their way . . Now that's democracy in action!

Nunez is the one who 'fessed up that he didn't read any of it . . and he's the only one left of that trio . . When he comes up for re-election . . Can him! Put him back in the catering business full time!

Just an example of what I'm talking about . .

And as for Dr. Gavin and PCC's proposal to vacate the Orman Right of Way through campus . . until he has better reason than the "Sky is Falling" and the "Gangsters are a Comin'", I say leave it as it is . . a throughofare . . If they can't at least be honest about this stuff, then deny them!

[Sandra]

Large, that was a county issue, not a City of Pueblo Issue. If you'll notice, I haven't been singing the praises of any of our County Commissioners. In fact, you won't see me posting anything either way about them any more. Actually, you might notice that I no longer post my personal political thoughts and opinions much any more because I'm in a position where I have decided to remain somewhat neutral.

I will continue to encourage people to become involved and build working relationships with our elected officials, and I'll even explain a little bit of what I know after checking and double checking the facts. I will always discourage people from taking a negative approach with any officials, and will generally applaud grass roots efforts, although there are many of those that I see which have no merit. Even so, I still applaud the idea of people wanting to become involved.

There are many facets of most issues, City Council has people from all sides wanting them to do things their way. If the people don't get their way, then suddenly City Council is the bad guys, but to the ones that do get their way, they're suddenly heroes. You can't give every body what they want all of the time, it's impossible, so my main "thing" is to try to help people understand that there is usually far more to any given issue than most people understand.

Council may make decisions we agree with or that we don't agree with, but I think they do have the city's best interests at heart, I firmly believe they are making decisions based on what they feel are good business and for the greater good of the community. If I ever see otherwise, I'll say so. I've got a mouth and I'm not afraid to use it, you know that. lol

[Loren Swelk]

Sandra,
I made $100 a month plus a free trip to the National League of Cities Convention every year. I do not fail to thank council members for their service every time I see them, regardless whether I agree with them or not.
I would rate this thread VG overall for the cogent discussion of what is definitely a difference in opinion, handled with civility.

[Sandra]

Loren wrote:
"I would rate this thread VG overall for the cogent discussion of what is definitely a difference in opinion, handled with civility."

I agree with you, and the civility is another reason to be proud of Pueblo! We're civil people setting a good example for others who will hopefully learn by our example.

:)

[large]

Large, that was a county issue, not a City of Pueblo Issue.

You missed the point . . The County Commission's inability to separate itself from personal issues and indifference was the point, and sometimes our council (or individual members in some cases) exhibit many of the same qualities, so to speak . . Judy Weaver has a "let them eat cake" attitude, both in meetings and individually . . and looking at her background, I see no royal lineage . . Plus, the Council's running war with Alvin and Ted freeman over their "Closed door" or "Executive meetings" has put a bad light on council as a whole . .

Plus, my own intimate knowledge of "how it works" from the days when I worked as one of the advisors to City Management and the City Council. Lots of things are decided in other places, with other people, long before any Council Meeting, Work, Executive or Public, takes place . . Sometimes behind closed doors, often at other "Informal" gatherings of a mere "Majority" . .

Based upon that, and a couple other Faux Pas', a number of people are demanding more transparency from Council . . which they should willingly provide . .

Especially when it involves Developers running amok and expecting the City taxpayers to cover any risk . . Which is already evident in some recently constructed areas . .

[Sandra]

Alvin and Ted. LMAO! As if they really had what it takes to really cast a shadow over City Council.

They're a couple of old men who fart out loud then complain about the smell. I'm not impressed by that. I know you're more intelligent than to follow those two...

Plus, my own intimate knowledge of "how it works" from the days when I worked as one of the advisors to City Management and the City Council. Lots of things are decided in other places, with other people, long before any Council Meeting, Work, Executive or Public, takes place . . Sometimes behind closed doors, often at other "Informal" gatherings of a mere "Majority" . .

Then you should also realize that much of that is just business, and nothing more. If the city were to have everyone in the city always involved nothing would ever get done -- or if it were done, it would be a shambles. There is a reason why there are people who are expert in various fields in the position of advising the city.

Plus, more people than not would rather complain than take the initiative to actually become involved and work with the city on any given issue. Rather than waste time and effort hoping someone will respond to an issue, maybe they just get down to business and do what they've been put into office to do in the first place.

It's just easier for people to moan, groan and circulate petitions than it is to build and maintain working relationships, isn't it? Because relationships are a two way street, you see. People with control issues want a one way street so they circulate petitions saying, "We Demand This" and "We Demand That". People who want to build working relationships travel on a two way street -- they say, "How may I help?" or, "What is my part in creating or maintaining that which is good for my community?"

If people want to become involved, then they need to approach their officials. But they need to realize that they should take some responsibility to help offer viable solutions to what they identify as problems and do all they can to maintain goodness.

I see a lot of nitpicking going on, as if people don't realize the role our elected officials have. What's the use of having them if we aren't going to trust them to do their work?

I don't think there is any elected official out there that people will not complain about. No one can please everyone, after all.

[Loren Swelk]

Sandra,
Shame on you. Flatulence in elderly men is no laughing matter.

[Sandra]

You can say THAT again!


lol

[Buster.Tripp@Gmail.com]

If a citizen becomes involved with the elected officials they will put you on so many do nothing committies. Spend a whole lot of the tax payers money
then ignore the results. Look at the Human Investment Plan 50k or more.
Make a deal with Council you do the work they take the credit. Use to be a community Graffiti removable program. when they sen no more writing on the walls they say they can do a better job. how much graffiti do you see now?
this is just one case. The gangs are still in Pueblo not going no place now they are giving the collage a headache. work with council use you then throw you away

[large]

Sandra, is your opinion about the triviality of Ted and Alvin's complaints yours or that as a surrogate . . ?

I haven't ever said they didn't have a case, I just said their presentations left a lot to be desired . .

As for them being grumpy old farts, perhaps not . . as I said earlier, "they're mad as hell and they aren't going to take it anymore" . . and . . They really haven't ever been answered by any of the Council on thier issues . . Just treated just as you have . . as "grumpy old farts" . .

You have to understand, as people get older, they have less time to do anything . . and if part of that time is spent in redundant arguments with fools, then old people tend to get grumpy . . I'm a really nice guy, pretty easy to get along with . . right up to the time one begins to expect me to tolerate stupidity or Idiocy . . which I won't . . and don't . .

[Sandra]

Sandra, is your opinion about the triviality of Ted and Alvin's complaints yours or that as a surrogate . . ?
Oh come on, Large, you know me better than that. I think for myself, and that's not ever going to change.

I've seen those two in action and it was all I could do to not sit there directly behind them and laugh myself into oblivion.

At one meeting those two and two others strategically situated themselves among the rest of the townspeople, and they all had the same serious looks on their faces, they all took notes at the same time, they all made eye contact on a regular basis, it was quite comical to see.

When one of them approached the panel, they did so with the most disrespectful and haughty tone of voice, using a mocking kind of tone as they made their rather accusing comments. That's no way to command the attention and respect of the people one is trying to communicate things to. I got a kick out of them anyway, I know they're serious about their thoughts and ideas, but these folks are going about things the wrong way. I'd love to teach them how to command respect by way of their approach, but I have a feeling they wouldn't be interested.

I kind of felt sorry for them, actually, at one point, because I know they earnestly want to be heard, but the attitudes they have along with their preconceived notions don't give them any credibility - it only took my observing them during one particular meeting to show me all I needed to know. After that I began to ask some questions about who they were.

The tone of that blog certainly doesn't detract one bit from anything that I saw taking place at that meeting, although one of the posts did have some genuine leadership qualities that did impress me. It wasn't a post written by either of them, however.

These individuals have nothing to be "mad as hell" about. But whatever it is, if they're "not going to take it any more" then I suggest quite strongly that they rework their approach. Instead of coming off as authoritarian and demanding, they need to approach with humility, respect, and dignity. They need to employ an element of diplomacy, and they need to stop jumping to negative conclusions all the time. If they were to look into a few matters, they'd find there's more to an issue than they see, and reading things in the newspaper isn't going to tell them everything they need to know.

They also should learn to choose their battles. Going back to the televised meetings - they're coming off like the meetings aren't televised, and they are. So what if the comments aren't? That's no big deal, people are still allowed to make their public comments at the meetings, and as I stated before, if that many people really want to hear those comments, then let them attend the meetings and listen to them live and in person. It costs the city less money that way, and would be an excellent show of community support for the city as a whole (not necessarily the administration, but the entire metropolis) if people attended city council meetings and became more involved that way.

And, BUSTER -- lol -- I love being active in my community, so City Council can appoint me to as many "do nothing" committees as they want (except for the Pueblo Municipal Elderly Male Flatulence Advisory Committee). I'm just as much a doer as I am a talker, so chances are if I'm on a committee something is bound to happen somewhere along the line. ;)

As far as who takes the credit, I often see where various citizens are being recognized for their efforts in doing their part to make this city the wonderful place that it is today, so I don't buy the bit about them taking all the credit. Besides, even if they did take the credit, if you did something, you and God know who did it, and that's what matters (unless they're making money off the deal, then it's a different story).

True leadership isn't about who gets the credit, it's about what's being done to cause there to be any credit in the first place.

And, for another one of my famous quotes: Diplomacy is the art of making others think you're kissing their (hind end)s when in reality it is they who are kissing yours.

[Dean.Barnett]

As for them being grumpy old farts.http://images.dailykos.com/images/user/1054/grandpa_oreilly.jpg

I get dibs on the "GOF. "