Army Recruiting Woes

[Zen Curmudgeon]

The US Army has a problem replacing the soldiers who have served their terms and gone home. The Washington Post reports, "in May [the Army] reached only 75 percent of a [recruiting] goal it had already reduced from 8,050 to 6,700. The National Guard and Reserve, which provide more than 40 percent of the Army forces in Iraq, are experiencing even more trouble; so far, the National Guard has reached only 76 percent of its recruiting goals for this year."

So - looking at the ongoing Afghanistan/Iraq commitment, and considering the apparent reluctance of volunteers to enlist, will the US re-start a miltary draft to meet its military needs?

Take Care -

ZC

[Chuckie]

It won't happen under this president. He already said he would not reinstate the draft. In case you haven't noticed, he never backs down from anything he says, good, bad or otherwise.

Personally, I have always thought a mandatory service of 2 years was a good idea. We have too many young punks in this country with no direction and even less (if that's possible) self discipline. A couple of years of military discipline would be a serious wake up call for some of these kids who were never taught that there are consequences for actions when they were growing up. I'd rather see a kid get a million pushups, peal every potato Idaho has to offer, and then run across the entire state of georgia than wind up behind bars.

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Actually it isn't the President, but rather th' Generals . . they don't want the Draft back . . too many undesirables . . that's been stated over and over again, from Rummy down . .

However . . I think that every High School Graduate should have to "Serve" Two years in the service of their country . . You get a diploma, you get a "Draft Notice" . . . no deferments, nobody gets out of it . . . and you would serve in other ways, Forestry, Social Programs, Teacher's Aides, etc . . . and the military might be an option for those who would want to serve there . . .

[Chuckie]

I don't know....Maybe those other options might be ok for females. I'm not sure I would give young men the option. Especially if they have a juvenile record. I know it sounds a bit predjudiced.

Basic training is about the most character building experience a young man can have. For some of them there is no other place they will find that. Self discipline, self reliance, self confidence, pride, patriotism, determination, loyalty. You don't get that stuff being a teacher's aide. My observation is that military and former military people don't accept substandard performance from the people around them, either. It has to do with the fact that they came from a place where they needed to be able to rely on the person next to them to stay alive. (or just to not have to do more pushups when that guy screws up)

As far as undesirables go, drill seargants have a way of turning them into "desirables". Maybe it's all the pushups.

At any rate, the country as a whole would be better for it if more or all of our young men had that background.

[Zen Curmudgeon]

However . . I think that every High School Graduate should have to "Serve" Two years in the service of their country . . You get a diploma, you get a "Draft Notice" . . .
You think District 60 has a dropout problem now...:)

It's been attempted before, in the Eisenhower adminstration 50 years ago.

http://www.eisenhowermemorial.org/presidential-papers/first-term/documents/465.cfm

The Defense Department is convinced that the Selective Service Act, which expires on July 1, 1955, must be extended.

http://www.eisenhowermemorial.org/presidential-papers/first-term/documents/1000.cfm

Despite Eisenhower's support, Congress would make significant changes in the measure. The military obligation of the reserve forces was reduced from eight years to six, and the bill failed to grant authority to draft men into the reserves when sufficient numbers did not volunteer. This eliminated one of the most controversial aspects of the measure.

Take Care -

ZC

[Zen Curmudgeon]

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-983408.php

July 19, 2005

Uncle Sam wants you – even if you’re 42 years old

By Rick Maze
Times staff writer

The Defense Department quietly asked Congress on Monday to raise the maximum age for military recruits to 42 for all branches of the service.

Under current law, the maximum age to enlist in the active components is 35, while people up to age 39 may enlist in the reserves. By practice, the accepted age for recruits is 27 for the Air Force, 28 for the Marine Corps and 34 for the Navy and Army, although the Army Reserve and Navy Reserve sometimes take people up to age 39 in some specialties.

The Pentagon’s request to raise the maximum recruit age to 42 is part of what defense officials are calling a package of “urgent wartime support initiatives” sent to Congress Monday night prior to a Tuesday hearing of the House Armed Services military personnel subcommittee. >>snip<<

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Zen, I don't think you got it . . . I said:

Quote: However . . I think that every High School Graduate should have to "Serve" Two years in the service of their country . . You get a diploma, you get a "Draft Notice" . . . no deferments, nobody gets out of it . . . and you would serve in other ways, Forestry, Social Programs, Teacher's Aides, etc . . . and the military might be an option for those who would want to serve there . . ." Unquote

The "Draft Extension" that was sought by the Eisenhower Administration and the Congress is an out of context reply . . . . . they sought it and they got it . . has nothing to do with the comment above . . .

The military might be an option for a young American serving two years for his/her country . . However, there are a gazillion things a young graduate could do to serve his/her country and there should be NO deferments . . Too few young Americans feel they have an "Investment" in this country, and that's very apparent . . that needs to change, because as that feeling goes, so goes Patriotism!

[Digger Dan]

If statistics are correct only one congressman has a child in the army. That tells us where congress stands--no universal draft for them unless there are loopholes for their kids. Why if we had mandatory universal draft we would have the outsourcing of rich and well placed kids at a rate that would nearly equal the current outsourcing of jobs the rich use to remain rich and powerful.
Can you imagine how embarassing it would be for congressmen and the rich and powerful to explain how their kids escape the draft. They would have so many smokescreens going on that no enemy would know where to shoot.

[DMad]

I don't know....Maybe those other options might be ok for females. I'm not sure I would give young men the option. Especially if they have a juvenile record. I know it sounds a bit predjudiced.

Basic training is about the most character building experience a young man can have. For some of them there is no other place they will find that. Self discipline, self reliance, self confidence, pride, patriotism, determination, loyalty. You don't get that stuff being a teacher's aide. My observation is that military and former military people don't accept substandard performance from the people around them, either. It has to do with the fact that they came from a place where they needed to be able to rely on the person next to them to stay alive. (or just to not have to do more pushups when that guy screws up)

As far as undesirables go, drill seargants have a way of turning them into "desirables". Maybe it's all the pushups.

At any rate, the country as a whole would be better for it if more or all of our young men had that background.


Wow, Chuckie, sounds like you were in the military, to me.

I would wonder what we tell those in the current generation of youth who have already demonstrated the self discipline and self reliance to be successful (through school performance, community involvement, sport and personal development, etc) that in addition to any/all achievements they have made in their short lives, the US government now requires that they go through a period of extensive physical training and mental breakdown so they can be rebuilt "in the way of the military", followed by a number of years of service to the US government, before they can go on to serve their country the way they originally intended to; by educating themselves further so that they can make a contribution to society by generating an income and paying taxes.

That'd be a pretty hard sell, I would think...

[Zen Curmudgeon]

From the Wall Street Journal...

OPPORTUNITY KNOCKS: Ten U.S. Army recruiters are offering volunteer help for Katrina vicitms at Houston's Astrodome. But the recruiters, struggling to keep enlistment up during Iraq war, are also available with options for the jobless. "Our intent is to approach the evacuees at the right time for them,'' says Army spokesman Douglas Smith.

From one troubled Gulf to another...

Take Care -

ZC

[Chuckie]

Wow, Chuckie, sounds like you were in the military, to me.

I would wonder what we tell those in the current generation of youth who have already demonstrated the self discipline and self reliance to be successful (through school performance, community involvement, sport and personal development, etc) that in addition to any/all achievements they have made in their short lives, the US government now requires that they go through a period of extensive physical training and mental breakdown so they can be rebuilt "in the way of the military", followed by a number of years of service to the US government, before they can go on to serve their country the way they originally intended to; by educating themselves further so that they can make a contribution to society by generating an income and paying taxes.

That'd be a pretty hard sell, I would think...

Yup, many years ago. All that means is that I know what the experience has to offer.

I've worked a pretty long series of jobs over the years as well. The most productive coworkers under 25 were always soldiers/former soldiers. It got to the point where I didn't like even being around the young ones. They were the ones most likely to goof off (sometimes in a danderous manner) , call off, make critical mistakes. I sometimes wonder how many jobs they got fired from before they stopped acting like that.

School performance, community involevent, and the rest you mentioned...did that too...pretty much all of that. NOTHING I ever did was as intense or shaped my drive as much as my stint in the military. With the exception of skills with high powered weapons, I would say that everything I learned there better prepared me for anything that came next.

a number of years of service to the US government, before they can go on to serve their country the way they originally intended to; by educating themselves further so that they can make a contribution to society by generating an income and paying taxes.

Are you implying that soldiers don't pay taxes? Yeah, they do.

"Taxes" are what we are intended for? I always thought that God intended me to be the best Chuckie I could possibly be. If I have to pay taxes as well then its just a part of life. Wow, that's pretty enlightening to find out that I was put on Earth to pay taxes.

I generate an income to provide for my family and obtain anything else I need/want without expecting someone else to provide it for me with THEIR tax dollars. Failure is not an option...learned that in the service as well.

Hard sell? absolutely. Don't expect it to happen. Would certainly solve quite a few problems.

[Digger Dan]

You were right on with your last post. The best students I ever had at the college where I tought were veterans--my best co-workers were veterans.

[Zombiewire]

My brother has been OUT of the 82nd Airborne since May. In one more month he will re enlist for his third time. He say that this is the time that army needs him the most. They trained him for 6 years.
I do not want him to go back but I understand.
I think we should fight those Islamic fascist there instead of here.






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One would tend to believe you are one of Cindy Sheehan's whining Americans . . .

There will probably never be another draft program . . . The military has trouble from time to time recruiting . . and guys with attituddes like yours is little or no Help . .

You and Dmad seem to not believe in a military . . . but then you proobably don't understand thaty if there wasn't one you'd either be speaking german or japanese right now . . and with few if any real rights . . .

Widen up the "One track" and see if you guys can remember that all of the Democratic Presidents had Army's too! And they used them, FDR, Truman, Kennedy . . just to name a couple . . . Just happens that those three sent American GI's into harm's way also . . .

Veterans are far better Americans, Students, Employees and Workers than most of those who aren't . . you may argue it if you wish . . but probably because you were never one!

[Zen Curmudgeon]

Veterans are far better Americans, Students, Employees and Workers than most of those who aren't . . you may argue it if you wish . . but probably because you were never one!I've been a veteran since a hitch in the U.S. Navy, large, about 35 years ago. So you & I have that much in common. And, like you, I tend to get a lot of my exercise leaping to conclusions. :)

Take Care -

ZC

[Chuckie]

I do not want him to go back but I understand.
I think we should fight those Islamic fascist there instead of here.



That line right there says it all.

[DMad]

Let it first be stated that I have the utmost respect for the men and women, both present and future, who risked their lives for the liberties that I and others enjoy on a daily basis. And understand that my respect does not end only with those who actively fought wars, but also to those who were willing to do so should their country need them. My comment was to voice the opinion that military service is not the only path a young person has to becoming a responsible and productive adult. It seems from the few posts to this thread that users of this forum have only worked with two types of personalities; lazy youth with little to no work ethic and former military. I find that hard to believe. I am fortunate to have three of four uncles who have retired from the military, but apparently I am LUCKY enough to know many more in my family who did not demonstrate the unsavory characteristics described in this thread whithout the positive influence of the US Armed Forces.

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Well, first, the veterans thing IS a generalization . . MOST combatants and non-combatants learn self disclipine and responsibility . . not all . . as with the current generation . . there are those who are extremely conscientious, self disclipined, right out of High School . . pure leadership material, doesn't matter what they choose to do . .

But as time has gone by . . the youth have demanded more, and today what was considered either exceptional or a privilege when I was a teen, is a "Right" or an Entitlement . .

And the things this country and it's exceptional constitution provides us with are completely taken for granted by a large group of youth . . they feel they owe nothing . .

My feeling is that Two years of service, Military or otherwise, would at least give them a feeling that they, too, have an Investment in this country and it's system . . .

I teach at a College level and I see both sides of it.

[DMad]

If the purpose of two years of mandatory governmental service is to demonstrate that everybody has a level of investment in this country, that is fine. But that is not the message the original post intended to convey. Translating that statement or idea into the generalization that ALL youth NEED these two "critical" years to develop their individual levels of responsibility and self discipline would be incorrect. I agree that there are a great number of young people who take certain privileges afforded to us by our constitution and protected by our military for granted on a daily basis. However, that is a true statement no matter what age bracket you are speaking about. Believe me, my father is a tenured professor and department chair at CSU-Pueblo and has been there since 1976. He sees responsible, self disciplined, self motivated, determined and loyal young adults all the time. They exist without the military, we should take the time to recognize some.

[Zen Curmudgeon]

But as time has gone by . . the youth have demanded more, and today what was considered either exceptional or a privilege when I was a teen, is a "Right" or an Entitlement . .

And the things this country and it's exceptional constitution provides us with are completely taken for granted by a large group of youth . . they feel they owe nothing . . I understand what you're saying. It's been a common theme for a couple of millenia.

Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers.

Take Care -

ZC

[Chuckie]

Believe me, my father is a tenured professor and department chair at CSU-Pueblo and has been there since 1976. He sees responsible, self disciplined, self motivated, determined and loyal young adults all the time. They exist without the military, we should take the time to recognize some.


Don't forget to add self deluded and self absorbed to that list. That's not a cheap shot. It's a normal part of human development. Young people are very egocentric. It usually takes marraige and becoming a parent to move to the next level of development.

I agree there are a lot of good kids out there. I know a lot of them. They will likely be pretty succesful in life just like their parents. I also know a few kids just like them who enlisted (and are currently in the war zone). They will be successful that much quicker for their experiences. In my opinion, the reason for that is because the military breaks that egocentrism and reinforces the self discipline and determination qualities.

In short, if a kid needs a shove in the right direction Drill Seargent Carter is gonna make sure he gets it. If he is already moving in the right direction he is going to be even better.

I guess it's one of those things you have to experience to understand.

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Yeah, last night I lost a student (or rather he lost us) BECAUSE . . "He didn't have the patience to learn the basic facets of the skill . . He informed me that he was going to do only certain things, so nothing else included in the course either affected nor interested him . . In other words, the young man had little disclipine, and exhibited the aforementioned "Instant Gratification" attitude of a considerable amount of today's youth . . .

Dmad has to understand that only about 33% of the youth is EVER exposed to "University" and a far greater percentile are Community College, and other Secondary Schools, demanding far less disclipine . . and fewer dedicated students . .

And again, a "Conscription Service" for all America's youth, to serve the Country sure a heck wouldn't hurt the country . . Because if for no other reason, it would give them all a "Common Ground", no one being better than the next, for at least two years . . . Just one of those Ideas . . .

[Zen Curmudgeon]

Retired General Barry McCaffrey was interviewed on MSNBC regarding the 7,000 man deficit in military recruiting and the impact that failure may have on the Iraqi war.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9598242/

MCCAFFREY: Well, I think one thing that is going to happen is, we are going to run out of military muscle to continue operating at this rate by next summer. We are going to have to draw down. We have got 17 combat brigades there now. I would be astonished if we can sustain probably more than 10. So, we'd better be doing pretty well next summer, because I think we are going to start encountering significant challenges in the Army and the Marine Corps within 12 months.

If McCaffrey's right, looks like a whole lot will be riding on this month's Iraqi elections. The current Administration theory says that creation of an Iraqi government its people will be willing to defend is absolutely essential to an American "victory" in Iraq. Ratification of the constitution on October 15 will be a huge step in that direction.

Take Care -

ZC

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Gotta take exception . .been doing a lot of that, it seems . .

McCaffery is a "Paid, Talking Head" as are all the other "Experts" on CNN, Headline News, Fox News, MSNBC and any other 24/7 News outlet one might listen to . . if you are to base your entire opinion upon any one of these so called media outlets, you're either lazy or illiterate . . they always say words like, "Thousands dead! or "We're Losing, because of BUSH!" Why? 'Cause YOU want to hear it! or . . The Talking Head is selling a Book he and some other guy wrote!

And while it's probably true that there is a whole lot riding on the Iraqi Election, one, we're not going to just walk away from Iraq nor are we going to have any big problem with enlistment figures in the Regular Army. But, Two, the National Guard might be another story, however, as most guard and reserve enlistees see their service as a "Weekend" of "Part Time" thing . . "I get paid, I go to meetings, play war once a year and I'm a "Hero" to my neighbors and kids" . . .

Not so anymore . . with the concept of "Lighter, Faster, Deadlier' comes the hard facts about a "Cheap Military" . . somebody has to do the Heavy Lifting! and it's the Reserves and Nat'l Guard that handles the little chores like the Air lifting, the Trucking, the Medivac, and all the non glorious crap that gets you in the same neighborhood as the Fighting Infantry and the Badguys . . And the word got out . . the weekend you train, could turn into a year long training excercise with live ammo . . . Doyawannadothat?

And while I'm not particularily a Bush Fan, you can bet, when the next BOZO gets in there they'll use that guy's name in the same way . . and that guy, and the next is still gonna have troops over there and they're still gonna be getting shot at . . it may not be Iraq by then but I can guarantee that we are not going to run out of towelheads to shoot at anytime in the near future!