The Daniel Pino Incident

[large]

This ought to make for a pretty hot topic . . .

Were the Pueblo Police right in this particular incident . .

And do we need "Citizen's Oversight?

[Lexi]

Care to elaborate on what the incedent was???

[large]

Lessee if I get this right . .

On Christmas Eve, a car load of Teenagers was cruising Northern Ave. Daniel Pino, 17, was driving and threatning other people on the street with a 9mm Pistol. A police chase ensued, and ended, I believe, at Beulah and Northern (could've been Berkley and Northern) where the police stopped the car by "Ramming" it. At this point, according to all that I've read, the Police Sergeant ordered Daniel to lay down his weapon and exit the car. He didn't. The Sergeant shot him through the windshield of the car with an AR 15, killing him.

The internal investigation by the Police absolved the Sergeant of any fault, according to a press release by Police Chief Jim Billings.

However, Daniel's family and friends, as well as a Latino Group, headed up by Daniel Medina, claims racial predjudice was the cause of Daniel's death. They cited an incident that took place later, after the turn of the new year, where a Anglo had an armed standoff with police in the Aberdeen Area. In that case the individual was alone, surrounded by the SWAT Team, and they were able to "Shoot the gun out of his hand" using one of the squad's snipers.

The police said that the circumstances were completely different, the only similarity being both individuals had guns.

Both accounts are available through the Chieftain's archives, and because my stories are mere thumbnail sketches, I'd recommend reading the news trail prior to commenting.

But I have been following the trials and tribulations of our Police Department as they defend the use of the Stun Gun (TASER) and some of the other Pecadellos that arise at times, causing me to wonder if some sort of Citizen's Oversight Committee isn't called for.

[Lexi]

OK, gotcha.

Some questions to help put this into perspective:

1. What was a 17 year old doing out on the street, WITH A GUN and a bag of drugs, when he SHOULD HAVE BEEN AT HOME IN BED ASLEEP?????

2. Where was his mother?

3. Is it also not true that this child pointed a gun at a police officer?

4. Isn't it also true that this child was a gang member and in the process of committing a crime when he was caught? (Or, are they now contending that the cops were chasing him for the hell of it? They just didn't have anything better to do with their time, so they either sought him out or chose him at random?)

5. How many officers at the scene were hispanic?

When I first read this article, I really was angered that a 17 year old boy was shot. I questioned whether there was another way to handle this matter. But, you know, in a police situation, if you are a cop and someone points a gun at you, it's either you or him...your training tells you to shoot. You don't have time to play with your taser at that point.

I then began to think about other things. I'm a mom. I would be devastated if my child were shot by a cop. But you have to look at some of the clues here: The child was under age, and was NOT safely at home tucked in bed. He was out causing trouble. (Thus the menacing part of the report.)

There is NO racial prejudice involved in trying to apprehend anyone of any age who is menacing, carrying a bag of drugs, and pointing a gun at a police officer.

I think it's interesting how ANY group can sit there and claim racial prejudice just because they were caught committing a crime and they happened to be black, hispanic, chinese, japanese, or whatever else.

Your race, your colour, your culture, does NOT entitle you to break laws, I don't care HOW OLD or HOW YOUNG you are.

AND, while you're breaking that law, if you point a gun at a cop, you're going to be shot and likely that shot will kill you. THAT is no secret.

Had the kid not been out doing "no-no"s, HAD HIS MOTHER been a more responsible parent to keep her son at home where he belongs, and if he sneaks out anyway, then make a police report -- because a kid sneaking out in the middle of the night is likely to get into trouble --then the kid might still be alive today.

It's not the big bad cops' fault when they catch you doing a no-no, it's yours, and if you're under legal age, also it's your parent's or legal guardian's for not keeping a close enough eye on you.

I'd say that 17 is a pretty good age for knowing the difference between right and wrong. I have a feeling this kid knew the difference and just didn't give a rat's arse.

So let's place the responsibility where it lies. Why isn't anyone (besides me) questioning the child's mother or father? Why aren't people looking at what this kid was doing when he got shot in the first place?

Why did the kid have a gun? Whom was he planning to shoot with it? Could it be that killing the kid who pointed a gun at the cops might have saved an innocent life? There's no question that it saved the cop's life...

[large]

OK, some of these things I agree with . .

Absolutely, Daniel's Mother should have done several things here. And actually while the cop pulled the trigger, Daniel's Mom and Family put him there and for all intents and purposes aimed the gun he was shot with . .

Obviously this kid either had never been taught Right from Wrong or concluded somewhere in his young life that it didn't matter . . This comes first in the home education part of life . . and apparently sometime about the same time he came to the conclusion that his family didn't care where he was or what he did . . And with the showing of his Gangster friends at the funeral, it showed his family was at least second in the list of people whom he was influenced by . . . 17, an un-wed, non-responsible parent, a school dropout, a gang member and at his age, carrying dope for sale, probably a potential career criminal . . I don't know for sure whether he deserved to die in this manner, but up to that point none of his decisions pointed to much social potential.

BUT . . Still based on a lot of other things . . I sometimes think we need a civilian revue board or something to that effect to oversee the police. Yeah, I know, there's the City Council and the City Attorney . . but the Council will always look at the political side and which way the wind blows at the time . . always has in the past, don't expect them to change.

Do we need a board to ask the hard questions and get that information out to the public? Or would this be just another group of do gooders asking stupid questions?

[Lexi]

I don't know for sure whether he deserved to die in this manner,

I certainly do not wish to deny any of the tragedy of this matter, as it is a heartbreaking issue, and, as a mother myself, it's a tear jerker for me.

BUT...the cold hard fact is, if you point a gun at a cop, you're asking to be killed, and the liklihood of that happening is very high.

I don't think I like the word "deserved" here, but I cannot deny that it fits, and that's the saddest part.

I don't think he deserved to be raised in such a manner where he felt the need to join a gang and end up as he did. Certainly, I am in agreement with what you've posted concerning that.

Do we need a board to ask the hard questions and get that information out to the public? Or would this be just another group of do gooders asking stupid questions?

A citizen review panel is always a good idea, generally speaking, to help ensure checks and balances. However, it's important that all members realize that it's not a forum for representing racial assertations, or calling the big bad cops on the carpet over every little wee thing. There needs to be balance, that is, the ability to reasonably and objectively ascertain whether an action was justifiable.

There are times when the cops make mistakes, and there are times when they don't. Cops are people too...unless they are CSPD cops...then it's questionable...but that's another story for another time.

Angry and hurt families who don't care to admit that someone they loved was actually doing a no-no would not be good candidates for such a board.

By the way, not everything brought before such a panel needs to be made public at the time, but all reports and findings should be available for public inspection/inquiry at the public's discretion.

[juswde]

I could go on for days about why teens turn to gangs and what we as a society could do to help stop the epidemic. But for now I just want to present some facts.

The Hispanic suspect had no hostages.

The Anglo suspect had a hostage.

The Hispanic suspect never fired his weapon.

The Anglo suspect fired his weapon at a car trying to blow the car up.

The Hispanic suspect never pointed his weapon at the police.

The Anglo suspect pointed his weapon at another person while in the officers view and drew his gun while shooting at a nerby SUV.

The Hispanic suspect was given several seconds to respond to the officers demands.

The Anglo suspect was given several hours to respond to the officers demands.

The Hispanic suspect could have been shot in the leg, arm or hand and still be alive.

The Anglo suspect was shot in the hand and is still alive.

Those are facts. And when you look at the facts you have to see that what happened was unfair and wrong. It is not that I am against police officers protecting themselves. I believe that they should disarm any person threatening their safety or the public’s safety. But just as they have shown with the Anglo suspect they can disarm without killing if they want to. They need not aim for the head or chest every time.

[Lexi]

And, these are "facts" pertaining to the case in question?

From where did you get your "facts", as I'd like to review them myself.

Also, I notice that you did not once address what the child was doing out at such an hour and where his parents were? There IS such a thing as personal responsibility here.

Show me the facts on that one....? Had he not been out, he'd probably still be alive today. It all gets back to one thing: If you aren't out doing a no-no in the first place, you probably won't have to worry about being shot by a cop after pointing your weapon at him.

By the way, the police are trained to save their own life if they feel their lives are endangered. If I were a cop and some idiot was pointing a gun at me, I wouldn't aim for his freaking legs, buddy. It's either him or me, and I promise you, it's not going to be me.

When a suspect aims a weapon at a cop, that cop has reasonable grounds to shoot to kill, as he has a duty to protect his own life. Sounds to me like he acted on his training. Any cop in a life or death situation like that who would be stupid enough to aim at a suspect's hand or legs is risking being killed himself, because the suspect still has the ability to pull that trigger and kill you.

Or, do you even know anything about being a cop? It doesn't sound like it...

[juswde]

All facts are as reported by the pueblo chieftain. Look them up. I'm not going to do it for you.

I know plenty about police and police training. My uncle was a police officer. He started as a MP in the army. He then became a sheriff in Texas for 15 years. Then worked in the DOC in Texas until he retired. Never once has he killed a suspect although his life was in danger several times. However I still have news clippings of how he heroically saved peoples lives AND disarmed suspects with no casualties.

I have said nothing about how the young man was raised because it holds no bearing on what I am talking about. So you are saying that because he was out committing a "no-no" he deserved to be killed? That is just ignorant! Neither one of the two suspects we are talking about should have been doing what they were doing. But the fact remains that one was shot and killed and the other one wasn’t. The police claim that the circumstances surrounding the two incidents where totally different. From the newspaper stories I have read I don’t see it that way.

[juswde]

But let me add this since you are so dead set on talking about how he was raised and why he was out on the streets at night. I don’t know how this child was raised. And unlike you I am not willing to point fingers at people whom I don’t know. But let me tell you this story.

My mother was left to raise two children on her own in the mid 70’s. She had no education and no skills. She was from a generation of women who were taught that the woman did not need skills because the man was going to pay the bills and they were going to raise the kids. My mother went on welfare and tried to raise her children the best she could. This was the time before we had the work first program. It was not mandatory, at the time, to work to receive your welfare check. But my mother did. She always worked for her check. When my sister and I got old enough to be home alone my mother began working two jobs and attending night school for her nursing degree. She was not doing this because it was fun. She did not like never seeing her children. She was doing this to better our lives. And a very unfortunate side affect of this was that I was able to do anything I wanted. I was out at night committing crimes. I carried a hand gun. And I could have been killed. Would it have been my mothers fault? I’m sure she would have blamed herself. But anyone with any common sense would know that the responsibility would have rested with me. And possibly somewhat on my father who left us in that situation. Thankfully nothing like that ever happened to me.

My point is you don’t know these people. You don’t know their circumstances. How dare you judge them like you are the almighty himself. His upbringing has nothing to do with the fact that he was killed and another man wasn’t. The circumstances surrounding the two cases are very similar. So why is a CHILD dead and an adult who DID fire his weapon still alive? It seems to me that you don’t want to talk about facts. You want to talk about something neither of us knows about and that is how the child was raised.

[spectre013]

These are two very separate and different incidences. For one thing in all the reports about the incident in Aberdeen the suspect never pointed is weapon at the police, and the shots where fired into the ground not at the car.

In the Pino incident it also doesn't mention him actually pointing the weapon at the police but just turning in their direction, but we nor the reporter was not there and some times being their would tell a lot more of the story then words ever can.

I know it the officers duty to serve and protect but when it comes down to it if you think you in danger of losing your like you going to do what ever needs to be done.

One other thing to look at is if Pino has simply dropped the gun and listed to the officers and not ran we would not be having this discussion.

[juswde]

Just to clear up some misconceptions. Here is what the pueblo chieftain reported about the two incidents. These are direct quotes from the paper.

Pino was trying to exit the car through the passenger's side door with a revolver in his hand when he was shot, Billings said. The chief said Pino ignored police commands to drop the gun.

"He had a gun in his hand and refused to comply with the officer as he started to turn toward the officer," said Billings.

Notice neither one of those statements says Mr. Pino pointed his gun at officers. My “Facts” were wrong and I apologize. I will edit my earlier post to reflect this.

On Jan. 8, Alan Ray Walker, 33, pointed a gun at his common-law wife and pulled the trigger. Fortunately for her, the gun didn't fire.

Walker fled to the South Side Aberdeen neighborhood where, while outside a house, he held officers at bay for more than four hours.
He later fired a gunshot at a nearby SUV in an attempt to blow up the gas tank

It is understandable why some citizens have questioned why officers didn't fatally shoot a man who had tried to kill his wife, had tried to blow up an SUV's gas tank and generally was posing a deadly threat to a residential neighborhood.

Now notice that Mr. Walker was obviously just as much and probably a much bigger threat to the public and to the police as Mr. Pino was. Mr. Walker fired his gun. Mr. Pino did not. Mr. Walker pointed his gun at another person while in police presence Mr. Pino did not. Mr. Walker was given several hours to comply with officers. Mr. Pino was not. Mr. Walker is still alive. Mr. Pino is not. I get the fact that the kid should not have been doing what he was doing. I get the fact that he should not have had a gun. I do not get why he is dead and Mr. Walker is still alive.

[Lexi]

All facts are as reported by the pueblo chieftain.

First of all, newspapers don't print facts, they print stories. (No offense, Chieftain.)

I want to see police reports and eyewitness accounts. When I want facts, I go to the source, not the media.

There are some things that are just not released to the public via the newspaper.

Because the child was under 18, it's quite possible that the police reports and things may not even be available to the public because of juvenile privacy laws to protect our children.

Again, I don't see anyone here acknowledging any personal responsibility for the teen here. Again, what was he doing out at 2 am with a gun and a bag of drugs? Why were the police involved in the first place? Obviously they were called to the scene...

And, where was this child's mother?!

Why isn't anyone considering this part? Why is it always the "big bad cops" fault when someone commits a crime and gets caught?

By the way, yes, those were two separate incedents. I have a sneaking suspicion that they both involved different officers responding to the scene, but I don't see either of you two stating whether the same officers responded to both scenes. That being the case, how can you sit there and attempt to insinuate racism? Most of the Pueblo cops I know are hispanic. Are they racist against their own people then?

I think calling it racism on the part of the Department as a whole is weak, at best. If the exact same officers were responding to both incedents, you might have an argument against that or those officers, but not against the department. Do you think that a half hispanic police department is going to tell their officers to be racially prejudiced against hispanics?

Get real!

[juswde]

I have more then talked about personal responsibility in this thread even though it has no bearing on the discussion at hand. I never claimed there was any type of racism involved in this incident. As a matter of fact I have yet to even state why I believe Mr. Pino is dead and Mr. Walker is still alive. I have simply stated the facts of the situation as reported by the Pueblo Chieftain. And I believe they derive their facts from police reports and interviews with the police. You are simply trying to side step the facts. You want a quick fix to this problem. It is most convenient to simply blame the parents. Did you read my post about my mother and my situation? That whole post was about personal responsibility. You go off ranting about racism when no one has even brought that up. The fact remains that a young man is dead. It is not up to the police to be the judge, jury and executioner. That is not the law of the land. The police are permitted to use deadly force in only extreme circumstances. If the situation with Mr. Walker was not an extreme circumstance then how could the situation with Mr. Pino be? Had both men been shot and killed I wouldn’t have a problem with this situation. Had booth men been disarmed and taken to jail I would not have a problem with this situation. But the fact that one man is still alive and the other is dead doesn’t sit right with me. Again I am not saying anything about racism. But in one case where the individual obviously should have been shot he wasn’t. And in another where it is not so obvious that the suspect should have been shot he was. But let me ask you this. Why is it that all you want to do is talk about personal responsibility in this thread? Do you simply not understand what this uproar is about? What do us as a community have to gain by talking about the personal responsibility of another person? A person who is now dead none the less? I think you are the one who needs to get real here not me. This is not even a discussion anymore. You are talking about a whole different subject then I am. You do not respond to what I say. Hell I don’t think you even read the posts before you type. You just start making things up. Please point out to me where I have talked about a racist police department. Please point out to me how I have side stepped the issue pf personal responsibility.

[large]

Hmmm . . The Question was . . . Do we need a Citizen's Board of Inquiry to bring the facts of Certain Police Actions into a better light?

I honestly don't believe racisim was a root cause for the shooting of Daniel Pino . . Maybe age or the idea of youthful stupidity in the eyes of the Sergeant who shot him . . . Daniel was in the wrong place . . at the wrong time, doing ALL the wrong things . . it got him shot.

My point is . . Should there be somebody besides Sgt. Randy Will's Peers looking into the facts of the incident. Not necessarily to punish Sgt. Wills, but to find ways to instill better training in our protectors. 10-15 years ago, a Policeman could retire and proudly say he's never drawn his gun, let alone shot somebody . . Now, in the larger Metro Areas, it's an everyday occurance . . . Like parking tickets, almost.

[Lexi]

I have more then talked about personal responsibility in this thread

On the part of the teen??? Where?

The only thing I've seen, basically, is you pointing fingers at the big bad cops, insinuating that they went after the boy as a racially motivated issue.

I have yet to see you acknowledge (other than quoting the paper) that the boy did anything wrong, your focus is on the big bad cops and what they did wrong. No mention from you that the boy was in the wrong in the first place.

I never claimed there was any type of racism involved in this incident

Then, what was your reason for comparing this case to a case involving a white suspect?

I'm sure there are plenty of other cases, then, that you could have compared this to?

I have simply stated the facts of the situation as reported by the Pueblo Chieftain.

Again, newspapers don't print "facts", they print "stories". If you want the facts, you need to go directly to the source, otherwise it's as good as gossip.

And I believe they derive their facts from police reports and interviews with the police

Newspapers and other media are known for either blowing things out of proportion, not printing everything, or otherwise turning it around to make a great story. I take what I read in the paper with a grain of salt. They're infamous for misquoting people and turning things around. It's commonly known "as giving it a good angle".

You go off ranting about racism when no one has even brought that up.

Once again, it was certainly implied by your comparing two cases that involved a hispanic person and a white person.

By the way, here's a quote from Large's post concerning the matter:
However, Daniel's family and friends, as well as a Latino Group, headed up by Daniel Medina, claims racial predjudice was the cause of Daniel's death.

If you read the posts, you'd have seen that yes, someone IS pointing the finger towards racism, and YOUR post comparing a hispanic suspect with a white suspect furthers this accusation.

The fact remains that a young man is dead. It is not up to the police to be the judge, jury and executioner.

It is when the suspect points a gun at an officer, which is what I'm understanding from other reports did happen. Even if the gun was NOT pointed at the officer, in police training, they do have to act on what they feel is necessary to preserve their own life during what is legally considered to be a perceived threat.

I would stronly suggest that you talk to a police academy trainer and find out for your self how and why police are trained that way. Or, check out some of the books by Joseph Wambaugh...a good one is called, "Officer Down, Code Red".

Joseph Wambaugh retired from one of the larger police departments, I think it was LAPD, and wrote novels about police work. The Officer Down book was more of a "heads up" to police officers about how to protect themselves on the job, and why they need to do so.

Try to place yourself in that cop's shoes that night, for a moment if you can. You perceive that you may be shot by a kid who is acting beligerant and out of control. What are you going to do? Bend him over your knee and give him a good spanking?! He has a deadly weapon, and he's pointing it at you...or, in the very least, it looks like he's going to...

You have a wife and kids at home to think about...are you going to let this person kill you? If so, who will provide for your family?

It's easy to sit there and point fingers when you know absolutely nothing about inner details of a case, only what you read in the paper. It's easy to sit there and say they shouldn't have killed the kid, especially on Christmas Eve.

But when you dig in and put two and two together, and look it it from different perspectives, you'll see a lot more than you realize.

Granted, I do agree it was tragic, and I cried my eyes out. I have two sons, I wouldn't want them to be in this boys shoes! If that were my son, I'd be devastated!

However, there is NO denying that the kid was doing a no-no when it happened, and as tragic as it was, we should all be hoping that other parents will learn from the mistakes of this parent and keep a closer eye on their teens and LOVE them. Raising good kids starts at birth....need I say more?

What do us as a community have to gain by talking about the personal responsibility of another person?

Do you REALLY need to ask this question? Perhaps discussing a person's personal responsibility in the matter puts the responsibility where it's due...ON THE CRIMINAL. The kid wouldn't have been shot if he'd been in home in bed like he should have been, and not out committing crimes.

A person who is now dead none the less?
Cold hard reality: He made his choice, and this is how he's paying for it because no one else took the upper hand with him, apparently. Again, as I've stated before, I'm sure this kid knew right from wrong.

This is not even a discussion anymore. You are talking about a whole different subject then I am.

Are we not talking about the teen boy who was shot and killed by police on Christmas Eve while committing a crime?

Hell I don’t think you even read the posts before you type. You just start making things up.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's not my style.

Please point out to me how I have side stepped the issue pf personal responsibility.

If you'll actually read, you'll see over and over again where I have been attempting to do so, but you're so closed minded about the issue, that I honestly don't think you're seeing what I'm trying to point out to you.

[juswde]

No I don’t see what you are trying to point out to me. How can we talk anymore about Mr. Pino’s personal responsibility? We both agree that he should not have had drugs, a gun or been out that late. What more can we say about it. I can’t decipher why he was out there that night or why he had a gun. I don’t know him or his family. There is nothing more I can say about that. I originally referred to Mr. Pino as the Hispanic suspect and Mr. Walker as the Anglo suspect simply because at the moment I did not know their names. Not because I was trying to imply racism. I was comparing the two cases not because of race but because they happened within weeks of each other. If that is how I came across I apologize. Once I re read the news stories I began to refer to them as Mr. Pino and Mr. Walker. I understand what you are saying about personal responsibility but that is not something for us to discuss. That is for his family and friends to discuss. And his personal responsibility does not excuse the actions of the police that shot him. So again you are saying that we need no courts. Forget about due process! Lets just let the police kill anyone they deem to be a criminal. I have never once in this thread said the whole police department was bad or racist. You are seeing in my words what you want to see. And again Mr. Pino never pointed his gun at the police officer. And yet again I do not need to read any books on the police. I do not need to talk to a police trainer. I HAVE family who were and are police officers. I KNOW how they are trained. And I KNOW that they have disarmed dangerous suspects without killing anyone. My uncle is a hero in Texas for disarming a bank robber and saving the lives of several people. He could have killed the suspect but he utilized his OTHER training and disarmed the man. Are you saying my uncle is an idiot because he disarmed that man instead of killing him? Maybe you need to read a couple books on how police officers are also trained to disarm suspects.

[large]

Hey, hey, here! We have an argument over shades of grey . . as I said in my last post, we've pretty much hashed out the opinion about whether Daniel shouldn't have been there or not . . and everyone has their own opinion . .

The gun deal is this . . Very simple . . when ANYBODY drops a round into the chamber of a Handgun, they are planning to do one thing, unless it's to shoot at a target, and that's to shoot SOMEBODY. Hand guns aren't really sporting devices, they are and always have been death dealing instruments. And when you load one for any other reason than shooting at a piece of paper, for all intents and purposes, you are planning to kill somebody. There is no sound argument for any other reason. So if you wave a gun in MY face, you will be faced with two options. Shoot or DIE! Because if I can, I will defend myself and the ONLY way I do that, is to react with DEADLY FORCE. Bang! You're dead! Better you than me! That's pretty much how its been for ages. And if you either don't understand that or are too stupid to comprehend it, then waving a gun around is another way of stating you have a suicide wish.

But we still don't have any discussion about Police Incident oversight . . . just discussion about an incident.

[Lexi]

Truth is, it's a lot easier to sit there and sputter the phrase, "disarm the suspect" than it is to actually DO so, especially in a life or death situation.

There are times when the suspect can be disarmed, this does not sound like it was one of them.

There are too many "superheros" on tv or in the movies who can disarm a suspect and not receive so much as a scratch. This leads people to believe that such a situation can really happen, and it's not like that in real life.

Cops are not superman, spiderman, batman, the hulk, Walker Texas Ranger, or anyone else. They are real live PEOPLE trained to do their job a specific way. Unlike superheros, cops can be killed in the line of duty, therefore are trained to protect themselves according to the nature of the situation and their perceived threat of harm.

That having been said, how does this tie in to whether a panel should be formed to check into the idea of police oversight?

My feelings on the matter are this: A board will ask the very same questions, and draw similar conclusions. If they are not given any idea of what it takes to be a police officer, they may "judge" unfairly.

One HAS to be able to weigh matters carefully BEFORE jumping to conclusions about what happened and what could have happened. Each situation is different.

The public, at large, does not seem to be too friendly towards cops for some reason, and that's fine. I'm not fond of them either, but I understand their job more than most would think, maybe because I've dated enough of them in my past, and maybe because at one time I came very close to becoming a cop myself. I'm glad now, though, that I didn't. Before applying with CSPD over 2 decades ago, I educated myself about what it would take to be a cop. Having dated them helped a little, but I read books, watched videos, interviewed trainers...the whole tootin' caboodle. I decided at that point that I was not a likely candidate to ever work in such a field and trained for another field instead. However, I will never let go of the understanding that I was able to receive just looking into the matter. I'm sure that had I actually become a cop, I'd have even more experience to help understand the nature of the job.

This is not to just stand up for the cops here, I've seen cops have some real boundary and control issues. I'm not at all happy with CSPD right now, for example, but that's another issue for another time.

Again, I stand by my remark that a citizen review board is a good idea, but how to put one together? Whom do you choose, and should they receive any training? How do you make sure they won't carry prejudice one way or the other (I'm not speaking of racial prejudice here...) when reviewing matters?

By the way, large, I like how you word things in your posts.

[Amberthebrat]

The incident should have been handled diffrently by police. The week after almost the same type incident occured with a older man that also tried to get in someones house, and a stand off with police, and all they did was finally shoot the gun out of the mans hand.

Daniel should not have had a gun, ran from police and all that, but he was a child. If Daniel had pointed the gun at police that would have been cause to shoot him.He had the gun in his hand, maybe he was afraid to move, maybe he froze, After all he was young. He paid the ultimate price in the end and people should let him R.I.P.. The family should be given a break to think about his parents and daughter especially.

[Amberthebrat]

How dare anybody say where was his mother? How dare anybody say that he wasn't taught right from wrong. Don't you think his mother is going through enough right now?We don't know this or all the facts.

Teenagers will be teenagers. Sometimes they sneak out of the house, they do what there not supose to. His family might be a updstanding family with morals and Daniel just took the wrong path.

People trying to blame the mother might lead to permanate scaring. Have you ever sent your 16, 17 year old for milk, or any item you need from a store. You don't know that they might make a bad choice and do what there not supose to. I know some people will say I know my child would never do that but there is no guarantee. Teenagers make some of the worst choices, remember what you did as a teenager?

Some Bad choices teenagers make are hanging out with the wrong crowed, drinking, smoking, drugs, sneaking out, wrong type of boyfriend or girlfriend, becoming sexually active, pregnancy, choosing not to do school work,pretending to be older than what they are, driving under the influence, speeding, talking on a cell phone or putting on make-up while driving. Heres just a few things to think about have you or do you do any of these things?

[pogo085]

I think we need a review committee, Pueblo cops are trigger happy, they use their power. Have you ever just sat on Orman St.? They fly up that street going 70 miles an hour at 2-4 am. I think it has and always will be this way, they run the city, why would we take away our police? They really do help some people, but they also committ a lot of crimes. Karma is going to pay them back though, it always will. As for the Daniel Pino case, they should have used a taser. They could have also sent a police dog, they could have done 100 things that would have changed the outcome and if they would have we would not be here talking about this, but they did what they did and we are here, yes it was wrong, I feel sorry for his mom, what it must feel like to bury your son. But really what are we going to do about it? A denver cop shot a bed-ridden man holding a can becuase he thought it was a gun, a can, now im sorry but how does a pepsi can look like a gun, anyway, to answer the original question, yes.

[Lexi]

Yes, how dare I say it, and quite boldly so.

I've given birth to 7 children ranging from 20 on down. I know very well the resonsibility motherhood plays in a child's life.

Yes, I dare say it and I'll say it again if I have to. I want to know why this mother didn't make sure that her son was in home in bed, why he felt the need to join a gang and go out and commit crimes.

If that were my kid, I promise you, he'd have been at home in bed where he belonged.

Kids don't "just take the wrong path" one day. Parents CAN and SHOULD do more to instill a little discipline in their children and keep them in at night. STARTING FROM DAY ONE.

[Amberthebrat]

I do agree the cops in Pueblo think they run the town, and are wrong in a lot of incidents!!! Six years ago In the summer month of July I was out walking in my neighborhood at probably 1-2-or 3 am . It was very warm and I was over 18 years of age so there was no curfew being broken. My 1 month old baby was very cranky and crying so I put him in the stroller and went for a walk , that seemed to be the only thing that would calm him down. A local Pueblo Policeman pulled behind me ran my and my husbands name and ordered us to go home. How can a Policeman Order you to go home? I explained that was I trying to get the baby to sleep and he got really upset and ordered us to go home and threatend us. It seems to be what ever is convienient for them or get a swelled head is what they do.So you can imagine how they blew this out of proportion.

[Lexi]

What did he threaten you with?

Did you take it up with the desk sgt? OR even an atty?

I've had Pueblo cops act stupid to me before too, so I know they're far from perfect. In fact, because of my legal training, I was able to tell one Police Officer he was out of line for getting involved in a civil matter and making threats towards me (he was going to go to a judge and have some legal documents "over ruled" and throw me in jail...lol...I told him he couldn't do that and he threw a fit). I went right to his commander -- right in front of him, which he didn't like...and the commander sent a sgt out to take care of the matter.

Well, this guy didn't like being proven wrong, and even his sgt tried to stand up for him until I told him that I know for a fact (and how it is that I knew that) that police are not to get involved in civil matters like that other than to keep the peace.

To make the story short, the police officer suddenly became a little nicer and, although he didn't apologize for his behaviour, he did back off. I haven't been messed with since, and I have a sneaking suspicion I won't be again, either.

At any rate, like I've said in a previous post, I'm not a big "cop fan", but when it comes to being in a life or death situation, they have to act on their training.

By the way, nothing against you or anything, but I personally would never take my baby for a walk at 1 or 2 am, no matter where I am. If my baby can't sleep, I pull out the rocking chair or something. There are too many idiots out in the middle of the night, you're placing yourself and your child at risk going out at such an hour. You're lucky you didn't get jumped or something.

[juswde]

@Lexi

As Amber said we don’t know if Mr. Pino was raised in a good home and just snuck out that night. We don’t know if his mother worked three jobs trying to take him out of a gang infested area. We don’t know if she trusted him enough to behave and stay home while she was away at work. We don’t know how much responsibility rests on her shoulders and I think it is really unfair that some people here are so quick to judge without knowing the people involved. I take such offence to this because 10 years ago I could have been Mr. Pino. I was out doing the same things. My mother raised me in church every Sunday. She never beat me. She did not drink. She did not do drugs. She wasn’t like most of the other parents in the projects. She worked for her welfare check. She wasn’t at the bar every night bringing home different men. She could not baby sit me when I was 16 and 17 years old because she worked 2 jobs and went to night school. And I was practically a man by then. I could have been killed when I was at that age and it was only by the grace of god that I wasn’t. But had I been it would have been ridicules for anyone to point the finger at my mother. So what if Mr. Pino’s situation was the same. We don’t know and therefore we should not judge.

Secondly, you keep saying I know nothing about the police or their training. Please refer to my earlier posts about my uncle and others in my family who are in law enforcement.
It is true that they are from Texas and trained in Texas. I do not know if the Pueblo police department trains its officers in disarming a suspect the same way they do in Texas. And maybe that is where the oversight committee needs to come into play. I do know this. My uncle is not a superhero and has never claimed to be. He is not a cocky cop who believes he is the strongest man on earth. He is a quite and humble man. I talked to him about this yesterday and told me he wasn’t trying to be a hero. The last place he wanted to be that day was on that street corner staring down a bank robber who had a gun pointed at him. But he remembered his training and acted upon it. He has retired and now lives in Pueblo and has been following this story as well. And he says that as close as those officers were to Mr. Pino, with the right training, they could have very easily taken a leg shot and disarmed him.

Now @ the whole group.

As far as the oversight committee goes. I think there needs to be one. I don’t think they need any special training. They need all the evidence and then time to decide if proper procedures were followed. They also need to be able to look over the procedures and decide if the procedures are correct and fair. For instance. There were two shootings in a 2 or 3 week period. The board needs to decide why 1 suspect was killed and the other one wasn’t. Did the two sets of cops receive the same training? Are the police trained to properly disarm a suspect? I also think that we would have less of a problem with the police if for one we paid them better. It would be real hard for me to go out and risk my ass every night for what they get paid. And two they need stricter guidelines for becoming an officer. They need more intensive psychological evaluations. Some of these police out there are simply nuts themselves. And I have seen the police academy at P.C.C and even sat in on a couple classes. I wouldn’t call it proper training.

[juswde]

I would also like to just point out that i have never seen or read anything except in this thread that said Mr. Pino was in a gang.

[Lexi]

And your point is?

[large]

Shoulda gone to his funeral . . The place looked like a monastery what with all the Hooded Sweatshirts . . .

And his bro's wanted to drape the coffin with a Gang Shirt . .

outside of that, just a rumor . .

[Loren Swelk]

In the Jan 26 edition of the Chieftain there was a letter to the editor from East Side resident Danny Medina. It started out... I work with over 2000 kids on the East Side. I stopped right there and mentally added the total enrollment of East Hish School, Risley Middle School and an estimated population of an elementary school or two and when the number didn't approach 2000 I went on to something else. If a person is trying to make a point or incite people to action then a blatant lie (or exaggeration for the faint of heart) should not be the lead sentence.

[Lexi]

Loren,

Although I am not doubting what you are trying to say, generally, I'd like you to consider that not every kid on the East side is enrolled in school. Pueblo has a very high percentage rate of high school drop outs, so in your figuring, add in approximately 23% more students and see what numbers that gives you.

[large]

There is NOTHING that will gain you more friends and enemies quicker than to bring racism into an incident, especially one involving the police.

Mr. Medina made a triviality out of something that bore looking into further by his racist remarks . . . and his threat . . . "We'll be watching you!"

As I and a couple others have counseled on this site . . . Think out a solution before jumping into the fire . . Some Smartass might ask if you know how to put it out!

Incitement isn't a solution . . . Helping people past the problems in his community is . . If he truly wanted to help his fellow East Siders, he's lay down the chip on his shoulder, and counsel these kids who have dropped out and became absentee teen age parents to lay down their guns, go back to school, so that they may become contributing citizens rather than poor, desperate, potential wards of the state.

Not knowing Mr. Medina, I really can't say what his agenda is, but, over the years, watching the world move on, I would have to put him in the same category as Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Reyes Tijerena and others who have used the Racist word to further their own well being . . .

Leaders bring their flock up . . they don't tell the world about how stupid they are and that it's somebody else's fault for their condition. Mr. Medina has done just that with his letter.

[Loren Swelk]

Lexi,
You are correct, I did not factor in the drop out rate, but also I did not factor in that Mr. Medina does not counsel every child at East, Risley, Baca and Bradford which are the four schools that came to mind when he made the 2000 child statement. The enrollment in those four schools is approximately 2000. If you back out the two elementary schools there are about 1400 total at East and Risley. If he counseled and worked with every child enrolled. plus the 322 (23%) that have dropped out and then ad in every student at Baca including kindergarten, you still are just shy of the 2000 mark, I find it hard to believe EVERY child at East and Risley have received guidance and counseling from him. But that is not the main point, which was; a gross exaggeration in the first sentence, negates what might be truthful statements in the remainder of the letter.
Loren

[Lexi]

Loren,

And that's a good point, which is why I said I'm not going to doubt anything you were trying to say, because your reasoning there is quite adequate.

I will say, I can't help wonder if there was a typo in there. Could a more realistic figure be 200 and not 2000?

200 is still one heck of a lot of kids...I don't know if even Spanish Peaks counsels that many kids...lol

[Loren Swelk]

Lexi,
200 would have caused me to read seriously the entire article. When I read the first sentence I looked to see the signature believing it had to be Eddie Mountour. I could see a total count of 2000 kids coming through the doors of El Centro del Quinto Sol in the course of a year.
Loren

[Lexi]

You know, Loren, I have to say that I'm curious as to whether Concerned Parents has any opinion concerning the matter. They work with these teens all over the city, after all.

[Loren Swelk]

Lexi,
I think that Fred Tripp and Concerned Parents are too smart to be caught up in an incident that may agitate their donor base. Fred plays it pretty quiet on these issues I think. As an interesting aside I ran into a friend who always has been a latino/chicano activist and I asked him about the letter and the first thing he did was to accuse the Chieftain of adding another 0 to 200. He couldn't believe the 2000 figure either.
Loren

[Lexi]

Well, the extra 0 idea makes sense to me.

As for the remark about Fred Tripp....too bad, because you'd think that since it's teens they reach out to, they'd be VERY concerned by this matter and trying to find a way to help prevent future incedents of this nature.

I guess money is more important, huh? *tsk tsk*

[Amberthebrat]

I will give another perfect example of Pueblo Police doing exactly what they want.......

At PMI there were some boys from the age of 17-20 watching an event there they got in a bit of trouble and were arrested ( all of them ) Not all the boys were in the wrong only one of them.

The police searched them, made all the boys throw there wallets that were in there pockets onto the drivers seat of the car they had driven. The police would not allow them to take there wallets with them, roll up the windows on the car, lock the doors to the car, or take the keys out of the ignition. The police commented " it's what you get for being a criminals " Please note it was Friday and all of the boys had just cashed there pay checks so there was a very large amount of money. 2 of the boys were paid bi-weekly and all of them work full time.

Pueblo Police went to the apartment of two of the boys who were roomates TRASHED there apartment, broke a dresser, and a few other items. Took a uncashed paycheck of another boy who didn't even live there. Why take a uncashed paycheck to a party not even involved??? This paycheck was from Burger King so it's obvious it is justifiable income.

The boys were all held over nite , even the underage boy who's parents were not called...
( BIG NO NO ) oh yeah and handcuffed to a chair. Which is very illegal.

When the boy who owned the car got out of jail he went to pmi to get his car, it was no where to be found, he reported it stolen to police, and made a complaint on all occurances that had taken place. Remember all there money is gone too.*He is over 18 *

A few days past and the owner of the cars parents were contacted, they were asking if they had contact with there son in the past few days because his car was found, stripped, burned, and put in water, they said that there son had reported it stolen and yes he was okay.... After a little more investigation they found that the police had not filed a stolen car report.

Money facts
1) pay checks and cash gone
2) car stripped engine and inside
3) new car stereo gone
4 Apartment Trashed

hummm seems kinda funny to me, sounds like the Police got a bonus that nite

From my figure I am estimating that all the boys probably lost 9,000 to 10,000 that nite between paychecks, car, apartment.

This just seems so unaccecptable.

[large]

This is the very point I'm driving at . . . Is there a community need for a group of elders to oversee internal complaints made about actions of the Pueblo Police Department?

I see and hear of things that make no sense . . some are almost indicative of authority run amok, in others, just a plain lack of common sense and training.

In the past I was close to many of the officers that have currently retired, but there are a few of the"Old" guys still there, and once in a while I'll talk to one of them. While I'm sure none of them would advocate more oversight, they do belabor the current training advocacy of the PD.

Probably the highest profile "Dumb Thing" I see constantly is the "Lookee Loo" mentality of most of the PD. An accident on the West Fourth Street Bridge, eastbound, 1:25 pm . . . Lessee, an investigating officer, lights running. Another, and another, bumper to bumper . . lights running . . one lane closed . . PCC is closing a major number of classes at this time, GRID LOCK! . . Do we have a Traffic Control Officer at the crest of the hill or the Fourth and Abriendo re-routing traffic? Hell, no! They're all AT the accident! LOOKEE LOOS! How many Policemen does it take to investigate a minor rear ender?

Same with an accident at Highway 50 and Elizabeth last August. Somebody rolled a car at this intersection, a fairly common occurance. There was injuries, the Fire Dept. rescue responded, sending a Squad Truck and a Pumper. The Police Dept responded by sending, by my count, 9 units, all of which was clustered around the accident, and as far as I could observe, NO traffic control. There was one patrol car, lights running, upstream in a traffic lane aproximately 30 feet from the FD pumper . . . West of that . . mayhem!

Zero Common Sense displayed here . . . And if a common citizen makes complaint, they come get your statement, and you never hear from them again . . maybe . . .

I think there could be a board or commission formed, on it, Elders, Geezers if you will, a couple of Retired Policemen always on it, and several older, calmer community leaders, with the counsel of a Lawyer who would hold no vote on recommendations that the group would make. They would have no power to hire nor fire, just to review actions either made or complaints filed about the Pueblo Police Department. Their reviews would be forwarded both to the City Council and the Chief of Police, as RECOMMENDATIONS . . .

They would have acess to the same information as the Police Department's Internal Investigations, and should have the power to interview witnesses to the events being reviewed. They would, in no way, supersede the Department's Internal Investigations Unit, the District Attorney's Office, nor any other agency dealing with an event or complaint.

As a matter of fact, they would only become involved after the event had taken place, and all other related actions been disposed. That would enable them to see the total of the event, and what could have been done to change the outcome for the better. This would assist the training sector of the PD to react positively, and in the end, help the public gain more confidence in our Police Department.

What do you think?

[Lexi]

Amber,

Out of curiosity, how is it that you know about this alleged incedent? Was it in the paper? Did it happen to someone in your family?

Sometimes when juveniles are caught doing something, if the parents are unable to be notified (say, they aren't home or aren't answering the door or phone for some reason), then they just notify social services instead.

[Amberthebrat]

No this was not in the paper. There was only one underage boy, and he wanted them to call his parents but they wouldn't . This is unexcuseable!!! I know most of the boys that were there and they are truthful, and have no reason to tell me a lie.

[sweet_chin_music]

Amber...

What (if I may ask) were they arrested for?

The reason I ask is that

#1- PMI is under jurisdiction of the sheriffs office, not the police department. They usually have disagreements over that area south of PMI, but if it was at the drag strip or the further north, that is the S.O. jurisdiction. If they are telling you the PD arrested them, then I would really reconsider their story.

#2- I've never seen an officer arrest someone and not take what was on their person (drugs, wallet, money) to the station or jail. Not saying you don't have your facts straight, but if they have ID's, the police are going to want them later.

#3- As far as the apartment...I don't buy it. That is a very clear violation of the 4th amendment. Now, if they were allowed in (which if happened, is totally legal to conduct a search at that point) then I would ask this...why was a paycheck of someone who wasn't there or lived there present? In that case as long as the police later returned that paycheck to the person it was issued to, there isn't a reason to complain. If a police officer goes into a house and finds a credit card issued to someone that isn't present and doesn't live there, chances are they will remove it. Same thing.

#4- Nothing is illegal about holding an underage person over night. Depending on the crime, they don't have to contact the parents until they are done with the booking process. Handcuffing someone to a chair also isn't illegal. Once again, it depends on why the police were called. Again...the police DO NOT have to call parents until the booking process is over.

#5- Let this be a lesson to all young people....if you are with someone when they are committing a crime or in possesion of something stolen or illegal, you are an accessory to that crime. Only if you can somehow 100% convince the officer that you had no part in anything done, you are going down as well. It's not up to the officer to decide if you are innocent, it's up to the courts.

One thing that amazes me is that younger people don't understand #5. If you and a friend are out and the friend wants to rob a store and in the process kills the clerk on accident (while you sit in the car) you are just as responsible as your friend for the death. There have been hundreds of cases just like that.

Sounds like your friends made a mistake being around the one person who got in trouble. It pays to know who your friends are.

As far as the police misconduct, your friend should have bought a lottery ticket that night because the odds of all that happening were probably around the same as winning the lottery.

[Amberthebrat]

None of these boys are my friends, I only know them. I do read files.

It is illegal to hand cuff someone to a chair other wise if it was my job would be a whole lot easier at times. It is a life safety issue. There is a chair that a person can legally be restrained in It is called a restraint Chair or Escort Chair there are no hand cuffs involved. This chair has had it's name changed several times due to law suits. This chair is plastic and has seat belt like restraint system and wheels on the bottom. The only time this chair is used is if the inmate is a danger to himself or others.

I consider Sheriff ,Police, and Corrections in the same dept, we are all a team. We all work together to make Colorado a safer place. However some of the choices the Pueblo Police Dept makes are questionable.

[sweet_chin_music]

Amber,

Not to go chase a rabbit trail, but could you please point out material or provide support that law enforcement handcuffing a suspect to a chair is illegal?

I think you are confused between illegal and socially acceptable. Many states are moving away from handcuffing suspects as a matter of social responsibility, but AFAIK, in Colorado there has been no such law passed.

[large]

OK, under the heading of "Be careful what you wish for" there's a Meeting at PCC Thursday Night in the very subject I started this thread about. Oversight and recommendation . . .

It's noted in our own Pueblo Chieftain at the bottom of the Ideas section in this Sunday's paper. And it's open to the public . .

I hope to see you all there!

[Lexi]

Since I don't get the paper, I don't have the details. Would you be willing to post it? Thanks! I'd love to be there...if I'm not giving birth...lol

[large]

Lexi; you really need to find out whats causing that!

[Lexi]

You are SO right, because if I knew what was causing that, then I'd have a better idea of whether I was enjoying it...

[Amberthebrat]

Sweet_Chin_Music,

The reason I know it is illegal is because of my job. I work at a adult males correctional facility for the State of Colorado and I have to know these sort of laws the do's and don't. Other wise I can be personally sued and fired. In my job there is personal liability. If you follow the rules the State will gladly back you, but if you don't follow the rules your on your own.

[Lexi]

Amber,

I'll do you one better than that...

Chin...look at Colorado Revised Statutes, Title 19. That's the children's code. It is explicit about how children, including alleged juvenile delinquents, are to be treated in the home and by the system.

Handcuffing a child to a chair without just cause and/or court order, parental permission, etc., is false restraint and is illegal. Even a mental hospital can not restrain a child (or even an adult) without special permission from either that party (in the case of an adult), parents/guardians/or a have a court order for an actually needed restraint.

El Paso County Sheriff's Department learned that lesson the hard way with adult restraining after several prisoners had died (over a given period of time) while under restraint for allegedly being combative, while it was later proven that some of those placed under such restraint turned out to not be combative at all.

You CAN sue the departments that employ such idiots, but such idiots may also be able to be tried in criminal court for their offenses.

Amber, I must qualify, though, that the State looks out for it's own, and is not always willing to help when you've been cooperative, etc. Someday I can tell you how I know this...lol...

However, you CAN sue the State for allowing (failing to correct) the problem in the first place.

[large]

Regarding the HRC Public Forum that will be held Thursday Night at the Pueblo Community College's Hoag Theatre, located in the Academic Building from 6 pm to 8:30 pm.

There will be a Forum Panel consisting of Judge Maes, D.A. Thiebaut, Chief Billings, PD Doug Wilson, Tom Duran, Zach Valdez, Gil Ortiz and Anthony Nunez. Rev. Keith Colvin will be the moderator.

Keep it cool and you will be heard. . . . . I'm sure . . . .

[Lexi]

Thanks for that info...if I can make it I will. If not, please let me know how it went? Maybe take a print out of the comments here to them?

[large]

Well, Geeezzz, shot myself in the foot here . .

Last night at 4:30 PM a client from Woodland park called and said he wanted to have a meeting on the prelim work I'm doing for him at around 6:30 PM . . whaddyagonnado? Priorities . . Hmmmm, th' '34 needs new paint . . Guess I'll do my business.

Anyhoo, they had the meeting, and it seems about the whole Police Dept. Day Shift turned out, and quite a few of the "Racially Motivated" turned out, complete with some of their lawyers . . so apparently, for the most part it was a "Stare Down" . .

Doug Wilson and Bill Theibaut both made some valid points I guess, and the Police Chief pretty much re-iterated that they could "Police thier own", so, based on the paper and the TV Sound Bite last night, they didn't accomplish too much. But you never know, it might be "a First Step"!

However, it was taped by PCC's Dan Thomas and crew, so it should be run soon on either channel 17 or 18. Watch for it!

[Lexi]

"Police thier own",

I see.

To me, that's like having the criminal to investigate his own crime...

EVERY GOVERNMENT AGENCY needs checks and balances, including the cops. This is NOT a "police" state, therefore anyone acting in ANY governmental capacity whatsoever should answer to the public. That's how this entire nation was set up in the first place.

If they don't like it, they can resign and be replaced. It's time for business, folks.

[Harley]

I am a hispanic mother of a 18 year boy who was a victim of Daniel Pino and his gang. I only wish the police would have responded more timely when Pino and his gang of thugs beat my child to near death.

I believe that "The Pino" case was handled responsibly by the police that were involved. I know these little thugs personally, and given a split second more, it would have been the officer shot and killed.

It is not a secert that this gang of kids made it a habit to drive around and point their guns at other cars, and people. They terrorize this community, and impose threats at a whim.

As for his mother, I think that she should have been a more responsible care giver, and kept her child off the streets in the middle of the night. If she needs to place blame, perhaps she should take a good look at herself.

It was just a matter of time before this happened. Pino brought this upon himself, not the color of his skin.

[Harley]

The incident should have been handled diffrently by police. The week after almost the same type incident occured with a older man that also tried to get in someones house, and a stand off with police, and all they did was finally shoot the gun out of the mans hand.

Daniel should not have had a gun, ran from police and all that, but he was a child. If Daniel had pointed the gun at police that would have been cause to shoot him.He had the gun in his hand, maybe he was afraid to move, maybe he froze, After all he was young. He paid the ultimate price in the end and people should let him R.I.P.. The family should be given a break to think about his parents and daughter especially.

The mother does not seem to be interested in grieving, her intention is to turn this into a money maker. Also, he never allowed anyone to live in peace.

[large]

OooooKay . . . watched the meeting we all missed . . didn't miss much, lot of people telling other people about their run ins with the Police. And while I have only been in Jail 3 times, and for very short stays . . I never met anybody in jail or the court system who did what they arrested him for . . . "cept me . . I got thrown in Jail in Armadillo, TX for being with a Black after the ten O'clock curfew! Twice! He was the Piano Player, I was a drummer . . Lead Guitar Guy was a 'Mexican, they didn't know what to do with him, just turned him loose . . Thank God . . or there'd been nobody to bail me out. probably wouldn't have let the Black guy do it! They was funny about that back then down there!

Anyhow, maybe we're past the Race thing . . and the fact that several people came to have their cases re-tried . . .

NEXT MEETING . . Same time, same Place, Thuirsday Night, Feburary 10th. Come with suggestions of how an oversight committee ought to be formed and who might be on it.

Let's forget recrimination and see if we can do something that will create a better future . . optimistic ain't I?

[Lexi]

Harley,

Thank you for taking the time to post that. Certainly we don't always see the perspective of those who have been victimized by perps who've been shot by the police, and I, for one, appreciate your taking the time and strength to post your son's experiences and opinion on the matter.

And, to everyone:

You know, the idea of a citizen review board needs balance. It shouldn't be only about the negative, such a board would also need to reinforce the positive. Citizen review boards need not be something that no one looks forward to, folks on such a panel would only become cop enemies, and we don't need any more of that.

I propose that such a board would also meet to recognize good deeds and thoughtful little things that some cops do for folks. Discipline the problems by implementing an appropriate solution, but also reward the good things with positive recognition.

A citizen review board is not about getting back at the big bad cops, it's about helping the cops do a better job and give the community something to trust, and helping the community learn to trust them. If there are big bad cops on the force, yes, they must be dealt with appropriately (fired). But the good ones should receive some kind of positive reinforcements.

[Wahoo]

There is plenty of crime here in Pueblo and for one I am tired of it. These criminals must take heed. There is a reason why the jails are filed to the rim. I am sorry for Pino's family and the policeman.
I think the copper did his job. He should have followed the coppers instructions to put down the weapon. Anyone in his or her right mind would have dropped that gun. Anyone in his or her right mind would not be in that situation of recklessness. And having said that he was not in his right mined so he would have fired that gun at someone. So knowing the possibility the copper shoots him.
Ill tell you now that if any criminal out there reading this better heed to the law. Or else you pay the price for you crime. You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

[Lexi]

There is crime everywhere one looks, Wahoo.

The problem is in effectively dealing with it. I think the Pino incedent clearly shows a community divided over how the police should be doing their job and whether parents have any responsibility in the matter where juveniles are concerned.

However, this really has no bearing on whether there should be a citizen review board. I am highly in favour of such, and feel strongly that EVERY governing agency (including Socialist Services) should have one. I also feel strongly that such a board should be made up of every day citizens who have the ability to weigh matters carefully and look at things objectively rather than accusingly. (In other words, I don't think it should be made up of the "high and mighty" who are more formally educated than the majority of the local population.)

I'm also in favour of such a board having a juvenile advisory committee, made up of juveniles, who could advise the board of things from their perspective. Such an advisory board should also have at least one adult who understands kids as well as other adults, preferably someone who works well with kids, and who will be able to objectively see matters as well.

I feel quite strongly that a juvenile advisory committee, who serves the board, is a great idea for involving our youth and teaching them about responsibilities for when they become adults. Involving our youth in the community gives them much needed and very important validation. They are people too, and their voices need to be heard, and we adults need to start listening to them.

I believe an interactive community, one that is involved in the issues and in controlling itself and it's local governing agencies; and that such a community will see a reduction in crime as more people show responsibility towards a unified effort because they have something positive to focus on.

[large]

Dunno, but I would recommend a board of "Elders" composed of people who can detach themselves from the emotional side of these things. We need to be able to look at events involving interaction between the Police/Sheriff's Office and the people in the community without really taking sides. You can't objectively review events while emotion clouds the issues.

And again, I would say the board wouldn't have indictment powers, only Recommendatory. The DA would have to act on anything the Board might find Criminal, probably taking it to a Grand Jury.

One of the things that would be necessary is the full co-operation of the PD IAB in releasing the full record of the Officer involved in any event or complaint. Doug Wilson made comment about the Public Defender's Office having to pay the city $2300 @ 50 cents a sheet for the IAB file of a Pueblo Policeman . . . If this guy had a file that big, he shouldn't remain on the job! Common Sense here.

Both Wilson and the D A Spoke of PD "Stonewalling" in many instances and both spoke of hinderance practices by the former D A, Monty Hall. Apparently, Gus was less than forthcoming!

These are some of the reasons that a Panel may be needed. While there are other routes of complaint, there aren't any that would "Funnel" them into a specific place or gathering place. Right now, there's the PD IAB, The Pueblo Human Resources Commission, The District Attorney's Office, and several other agencies that were named by Juan Espinosa in his column in the Chieftain this morning. There really needs to be either a board or other single place to take complaints to be reviewed as well as have events explained to the public without the feeling that the whole truth wasn't told.

I'd Recommend a board with, say, Al Gurule as the first Chairman, at least 2 retired Policemen, say, Bill Hurley, and another who retired as either Corporal or Sergeant, geezers now, but detached far enough from the current staff that they wouldn't be risking friendships with a recommendation. And several older or retired businessmen, again, people who can look at things with relatively level heads. Nothing against youth here, but youth often attaches what they see happening around them as something to "Crusade" against. Don't need no crusaders with agendas. And they'd need counsel . . again, probably an older one, Jim Phelps comes to mind, because, Well, Jim has always told it like it is, no BS, no Politics . . or somebody like him. No Politics allowed, either. This panel would have to tell it like it is, with nothing to gain or lose by doing that. They'd have to be appointees, no elections, no favors, Nada.

And yeah, Juan's probably right, another layer of Bureaucracy, I suppose . . But who else could, or will do this? Nobody has, up to this point.

And one more thing. This may come as a surprise to many, but, the local Law Enforcement Agencies are not responsible for the Children YOU bring into this world. It is YOUR job to clothe, feed, EDUCATE, and know where and what your child is doing at ALL TIMES! They have neither the money, training nor obligation to be mothers and fathers to YOUR Children. There was a lot of recrimination about what the Policeman's role is with Children at the HRC Meeting. There really shouldn't be any, as Policemen are hired by the community to keep law and order. If your child is involved in an interaction with a policeman, chances are, the kid is either where he doesn't belong or doing something he shouldn't. Why else would the cop bother him? While, I'm sure there could be other reasons, more often than not the cop became interested because something got his attention . . .

[Lexi]

A board of elders? This isn't Jehovah's Witnesses, Large. Or any other religious organization.

I think a general board of those in the community, called a Citizen Review Board, is sufficient. No need to get overly complicated here.

Part of the prerequisite for being part of this board, as has already been discussed, should be the ability to see things rationally and objectively rather than accusingly. Your remark ("...composed of people who can detach themselves from the emotional side of these things."), redundantly uses different words to repeat what I had already said in my previous post ("...who have the ability to weigh matters carefully and look at things objectively rather than accusingly.").

I am quite adamant that this board NOT be made up of local politicians. It needs to be made up of the general community members at large who will be willing to work closely with the appropriate parties in order to ensure quality. The idea here is, in this case, the police working with general members of the community -- we taxpayers, the ones they serve on a daily basis -- not to hold the high and mighty sword over anyone.

This needs to be a cooperative effort, not a slave/master thing. Otherwise all you're going to do is rip the community further apart causing more distrust between the community and the cops. The idea IS NOT to make enemies of the cops, rather to work together as members of the community for the betterment of the community and the people in it.

I think it's best to have general members of the community involved here. These people may or may not even have a GED, but these are the people who are most affected by the police, why not have them be the ones to apply for membership of the board?

As long as they have what it takes to do the job, who cares about their education level?

And yeah, Juan's probably right, another layer of Bureaucracy, I suppose . . But who else could, or will do this? Nobody has, up to this point.

Who else? Citizens at large, that's who else. Nobody has up to this point, true, but we're coming together to discuss it now. Better late than never, I say.

No more bureaucrats. Let the citizens participate for a change. If they don't want to, then we don't need the panel. Simple as that.

If you get bureaucrats involved, all that's going to happen is corruption, I promise you that. No need to make matters worse. If citizens are not willing to step forth and be part of this, then there should be no bother.

I am one citizen willing to step forward and be part of this. Are you another?

[large]

Hmmm . . Elders: Older, experienced, preferably retired with little or no conflicts of Interest. Advisors . . nothing to do with either the Jehovah's Witnesses nor the Mormons . . or any other Religious Group or Entity.

You probably wouldn't qualify as you have a slightly slanted view, based on your comments about Colorado Springs Police and being held by them at gunpoint. Again, no disrespect, but the panel could, actually, should contain "Average people" also, but Younger, more Idealistic people need to be where their agendas and beliefs can be used to a far better degree.

After school diversional and educational programs can't be run by District Teachers (As Loretta seemed to imply they should at the meeting the other night) but by people with the energy to get out and do another 3-6 hours after spending a day working for a living.

It's amazing how many people can play two games in Softball League after work but don't have time to show neighborhood kids how to play ball! Far easier to get on a comittee that meets once a month and talk about it. Don't get me wrong, I used to play softball too, once a week.

As Danny said, "Stay Home, see that your kids recieve an education first. After your kids are on their way sucessfully, then you may become an activist (or whatever) and you'll have the time to devote to that then." His Jail is full of un-educated mis-creants, with a very large percentage of recidivism . . . Education is the great Freedom Giver!

let the old wise people judge the problems and find cures. and if you would have suggestions or complaints, i'm sure they would listen!

Gotta go . . And you better get busy and give life to that little tricycle motor! Heh, heh . . .

[Lexi]

It doesn't take "older people" to see what's going on, Large.

And, I think I would qualify nicely. Granted, you think I'm slanted because I've seen corruption in Colorado Springs Police, but this isn't Colorado Springs, it's Pueblo, and there are completely separate issues between those two departments.

If I were, indeed, slanted, I'd be on the same bandwagon as the rest who just want to get back at the cops. I'm not like that. Having gone through trying times doesn't make one unable to be objective, again, that depends on the type of person.

(By the way, I never said that the Colorado Springs Police held me at gunpoint...where the heck did you get that from?!)

Again, no disrespect, but the panel could, actually, should contain "Average people" also, but Younger, more Idealistic people need to be where their agendas and beliefs can be used to a far better degree.

You're repeating me again, I see...I've already stated this.

As for the rest of your post...I don't see how those ramblings pertain to a Citizen Review Board...??

[large]

Lexi, the tape of the meeting was run on the next night on channel 17, as I said it probably would be. There was also two articles, one by a reporter, the other by Juan Espinosa (also a reporter) on the meeting. The first was a general report, the second by Juan, an editorial. these both ran the next morning (Thursday) in the Chieftain. It's fairly obvious you haven't seen nor read any of that. Not trying to be a smart**** but you gotta keep up.

When I quote "Danny" I'm speaking of Sheriff Corsentino. Judge Maes said almost the same thing but with far more rancor towards the community's parents.

And a lot of a board's recommendations would have to do with Law Enforcement's Training Format . . 99% of the Contemporary Policemen are trained in that format. Control, always control! That seems to be a very large part of the problems the average citizen has with the police, very one sided as the police want control from the second they step into any event. It is even reflected in them when they deal with family and friends when off duty.

I grew up with a different type of Policeman, one who would act toward you as you to him. A gentleman by the name of Ray Avery comes to mind. He would come to an event or incident, as you will, Smiling, always Smiling, and God! Was that man big . . . But always smiling, and never, never hollered or shouted. Even voice, and he'd ask, not demand. Got lots of things done, and as far as I know. he never drew his gun once. 30 years on the force, most of it spent as a patrolman. And I'm not sure, but I think Ray completed his service without a complaint ever being filed against him. I do know . . when a Backup was needed, all his peers wanted Ray . . 'Specially in those bar fights in Bessemer!

Petey Hudgins was another, never quit smiling . . . did his job well too. John Busia, Bill Hurley, ***** I could fill this whole page with the names of Officers who did their jobs with little or no rancor, even from a lot of the perps. Even they respected those guys.

Not so now days, the average citizen won't give a contemporary Cop the time of day . . they give no respect, why should they receive any?

We see them cruising, sitting low in the seat, ALWAYS on a cell phone. Or we'll see them pull up to an intersection, have a red light, flip on the light bar, buzz the intersection and then meet another patrol car in the King Soopers parking lot and sit and BS. 10 cars at an automobile accident, but no one directing traffic around the site. Just a sprinkle of reasons that they need to be looked after.

And why old guys and gals? They've seen more, don't get quite as excited about things as us younger ones do. And the People they're overseeing would probably respect their views better. I suppose the same reason we choose older people to be our civic leaders, also. Again, the people we choose to lead are usually people who have gained our respect. (But not always, we find.)

[Lexi]

And why old guys and gals? They've seen more, don't get quite as excited about things as us younger ones do.

You're stereotyping. Folks in this day and age aren't going to have any more respect for an older person than a younger one, it's not the age they care about. Respect is earned, not just "given", and it doesn't matter how old or young you are, if you are the type who commands respect (and the use of commands isn't the demanding kind, it refers to one's personal demeanor), then you'll receive it.

I don't get channel 17 as I don't have cable, but I did see part of the meeting while I was elsewhere today.

I would like to reiterate (By the way, do you read my posts in their entirety before you respond? I would encourage you to do so....) that a citizen review board is a good idea, but should not be taken on with the idea of getting back at the big bad cops. If you do that, you're asking for trouble. You want to work with them, not against them, especially if you want to see nice, happy, friendly, smiling cops like you had when you were growing up.

SO, again, this is why I stated in an earlier post that such a review board needs to be able to work with police trainers, etc....it should be a two way effort, keeping safety first at all times.

[large]

We're on the same page . . .

[large]

Uh . . And, oh, yeah . .

What's the status of the potential tricycle motor? Nothing yet?

[Lexi]

lol@tricycle motor! That's cute.

If all goes well, it'll happen today. And if it does, maybe I'll be able to catch that video again so I can see the ENTIRE meeting...lol...

From what I saw yesterday, there were some really good points that were brought up, and it was encouraging to see how some of the folks were able to bring up their concerns in a somewhat diplomatic way while firmly maintaining their positions.

I have to say, though, that my heart went out to the gal who's husband died from being tazed. Although she worked with officials to change procedures and things, apparently they STILL treated her like dirt and started rumors and such. I like the way she was able to boldly confront those individuals at the meeting while maintaining her composure about it.

Anyway, gotta run. See you all in a few days. :D