Cave People

[Zombiewire]

CAVE people keep Pueblo in the dark


Pueblo will never progress unless it can overcome the CAVE people.

CAVE people does not refer to cave dwellers. Rather, explained one of Pueblo's leading economic developers, it's an acronym for Citizens Against Virtually Everything.

Granted, there's no such formal group. But there clearly is an informal group of loosely aligned people who seem to oppose every project proposed for Pueblo.

Want to put a cement plant south of Pueblo, on land that's not being used? Never mind that health authorities say it would be OK. The CAVE people wave signs and sue.

How about a Wal-Mart distribution center at Pueblo West? Nope, says CAVE, claiming that there would be a terrible increase in traffic with semi-trailers flooding U.S. 50. Never mind that a sophisticated traffic study said the impact would be minimal. And never mind that Pueblo West needs commercial development. Otherwise, the future holds huge personal property tax increases to pay for inadequate and crumbling infrastructure. And never mind that the Wal-Mart Supercenter, now under construction, will cause a lot more traffic problems than a distribution center.

No, never mind. The CAVE faithful have spoken.

How about a little Indian casino in Pueblo? Maybe at the Historic Arkansas Riverwalk of Pueblo; maybe at another location.

No, screamed the CAVE people, wearing fancy "no casino" T-shirts and placing a professionally produced full-page newspaper ad, all the while refusing to admit that some of their funding came from the casinos in Blackhawk, Central City and Cripple Creek. The CAVE people condemned casinos as engines for personal despair, yet they still accepted campaign money from the devil.

Never mind that the casino would have been a relatively tiny project, much more like the Double Eagle in Cripple Creek than the massive Indian casinos in Connecticut or California, and nothing like the real casinos in Las Vegas and Atlantic City.

And never mind that they shamelessly used unfounded fear tactics such as worrying aloud whether the casino would attract prostitution and the mob.

CAVE people obviously have never spent much time in Cripple Creek, haven to blue-haired, chain-smoking ladies with rolls of nickels and buffet coupons in their pockets, where an AARP card is a more common ID than a driver's license.

And never mind that the controversy of sovereignty has been worked out in other U.S. locations. CAVE just wanted to make sure that you were properly terrified about the potential consequences of having a sovereign nation - all 5 acres of it - sitting in the middle of your city.

Never mind that The Chieftain learned and reported, for example, that in Green Bay, tribal security officers are cross-deputized as county sheriff's deputies and that government officials there say the sovereignty issue is not a big deal.

CAVE pays no never-mind to such facts because that isn't how the group operates. Instead, CAVE has mastered the shotgun technique of throwing out numerous concerns and getting people stirred up. That strategy, used so successfully by master debaters, relies on a simple tenet: Never, never let the process get past the fact-finding stage. Because if you do, people might actually make a reasonable, logical decision based on the complete facts.

No, CAVE people feast on emotions. If they feel something is wrong, then, by God, it's wrong. And, they almost say, you're welcome, Pueblo, that we're here to save you from yourselves.

Folks, there's no such thing as a perfect project. You can nitpick proposals to death. There always will be downsides. Maybe none of these projects were or are good for Pueblo, but we never even got a chance to look at all of the facts.

At some point, Pueblo's going to have to take a chance. How much longer are we going to sit by and see our best young people leave for college and never return because there's nothing here for them?

Where are tomorrow's leaders in today's community? Can you name 10 up-and-coming leaders, now in their late 30s and early 40s, who are poised to lead us in the future?

Don't count on CAVE. They only oppose things. They're just waiting for the next opportunity to throw on sloganed T-shirts and wave signs.

How about considering taking a stance for something? If CAVE people insist on waiting for the perfect economic opportunity, they'll never see the sunlight.

Steve Henson is The Pueblo Chieftain's managing editor. He can be reached at 544-0006, ext. 410; or online at shenson@chieftain.com.


www.pueblohometech.com

[Zombiewire]

I just want to say that this guy can write. And facts at that

[DMad]

Thank you, Zombie! I just put a post similar (but not as eloquent) in the casino thread. It's ridiculous to me! All these naysayers out there living to throw salt on any idea for Pueblo's developement, never caring that as the world develops and moves forward around us, we continue to sit in our "service industry" economy where the majority of our young people seem to be employed by some food services business as opposed to anything technical and advanced.

Is this to say that a WalMart distribution center and/or an indian-owned casino would increas the amount of skilled jobs available in our fair city? Maybe not initially, but in order to lure these kinds of businesses, there needs to be something to attract them.

So, let's see what we got. Well, we can use the HARP to attract new businesses. Oh, wait, we don't have a damn thing built up around the HARP to even attract our own citizens. Hmmmm, we can advertise the newly-named CSU-Pueblo campus as our beacon of hope for the future. Hell, they can't even keep up with the flow of people out of this city, tuition for the current semester is down from a year ago. So what, then?

Let's quit with the complaining, quit with the scare tactics (I don't know that I've seen specific crime statistics for Cripple Creek and Blackhawk, but I can't imagine that they're all that much higher). Let's try something totally unique and never-before-heard-of in Pueblo......

SOLUTIONS!!!

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Some yes, some no . . .

Budweiser . . the Argument took too long . . they, as with most Corporate Businesses, have a limited amount of time to complete their planned Capital Construction . . Pueblo's inherant inability to make informed decisions because of the fact that someone may either get their feelings hurt or that someone might make 3 dollars cost them this one . .

Wal Mart . . There was more information posted, debated, and buried under a "Hate Wal Mart" movement than any other opposition group has ever done in the history of PEDCO. As well as more of the above! James, you could've qualified as one of the leaders of that particular group!

The Private Prison . . It should've been placed right where they wanted it at the outset . . the site of a former Prison, the Honor farm . . Again, a small bunch of naysayers who live on the West Side decided to get a starring role as NIMBY's . . . . now, they're still debating whether it should be at the Airport . . . awww, jeez!

The Cement Plant . . Who the Hell knows . . again a small bunch of NIMBY's crying aboiut "Air Pollution" . . Does HOLNAM create pollution? not really or we'd be the first reciepients, because? they are due west of Pueblo about 22 miles . . and we'd sure notice it if there was any. and if the new Cement Plant is to be due south of Pueblo, how would that affect the color of eggs in Hong Kong? They've answered EVERY Question, filled out all the forms and crossed all their T's . . so what's the hold up?

The Addition to the Comanche Power Plant? Still in limbo as far as I know . . the City is planning to build a new Police Station with the money they might get, but hasn't the County Commissioners thrown a monkey wrench in the gears because they expect a chunk of revenue too? . . so what's happening here?

The Casino, on the other hand, still had no answers to any of the questions that were or eventually would be asked . . and when the Indians took their "Rubber Duck" and went home, it was because "It wasn't enough" . . . does that tell you anything?

[DMad]

It sounds like the squeaky minority getting the oil.

Listen, you can NEVER please anybody. Where are the decision makers? The ones who are entrusted to take an offer, immediately begin doing the research and necessary homework, and making a decision that suits the WHOLE of the city?? As we all know, you can NEVER please everybody, and if Pueblo is waiting for the opportunity that does appeal to 100% of the citizens, it's never going to happen!

I guess we can always count on another restaurant/department store coming to this city, they seem to be the only industries we welcome with open arms...

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Personally, I think they go about it too long and wrong . .and with no "Sponsors" or perhaps "Guide" might be the term . . Kinda like Fred Thompson did when Bush chose John Roberts for the Supreme Court Positon . . . Fred ran "Interference" for him with the Senators, and as a Former Senator, was accepted as the "Front Man" or "Good Ole Boy' . . and what Fred said was apparently good enough for most of the senators, they quizzed him (Roberts) and voted him in . . . .

That's kinda where we're at with this "PEDCO" deal, but not quite . . and sometimes PEDCO shoots themselves in the foot by "Introducing" the new business to Pueblo and then stepping back . . and letting the Clown Council or the Bounty Commissioners have at them . . . it quickly becomes a "Free for All" and all the County whiners jump in to get their two bits worth in . . as often as not, from a negative point of view . . .

Let's track one of our "Jewels" . . The Sangre de Cristo Arts and Conference Center . . go waaaaaay back, to the mid '60s . . Johnny Demas, among others (few others) talked of having an "Arts Center" and not too long after, the Director of Planning, the Head Honcho of the Pueblo Council of Government (COG), C. Allen Bloomquist started working on a couple of local Architects, one of whom was John Hurtig . . But . . They needed a good "Salesman" . . and along came Kathy Farley and Pat Kelly . . these two women learned everything there was to know about the hows and whys . . and tirelessly presented the idea to anyone who needed to know or would contribute . . . All of the planners and architects fed them the information (and presentation materials) that was needed or asked for and until it was built, they ushered it into being . and acceptance . . . they were the "Executioneers" . . and without them and their learned (and dogged) expertise it probably would't have happened . . .

That was for a wonderful entity that will never pay it's way, but without it, the Community would suffer greatly . . so what would be so hard about doing that with a Company or Business that might want to locate here?

You see, in any of the things we talked of or mentioned in my last post, were any local voices heard? . .as soon as an "Opposition" got up, the positive voices went mute . . there was no "Local" to stand up and answer the questions that were asked . . and face the CAVE Dwellers down . . . possibly, had the Indian Casino had a local voice (or voices) that could've answered the questions asked, knowledgably, then it might've gotten somewhere . . And had the Pueblo West Managers who were dealing with Wal Mart, had a High Profile Local Citizen speaking for them, we might have had that business here . . .

Just a thought based on past experience . . . .

[Zombiewire]

The story was good! Cheers and open your eyes

[Zombiewire]

Steve did it again! Cheers to Steve for writing an excellent story. I completely agree with his take on the Cavers and precavers. I my self was a caveman but since I have shed my skin.


Souma yergon, sou nou yergon, we are shakin’ the tree
Souma yergon, sou nou yergon, we are shakin’ the tree

Waiting your time, dreaming of a better life
Waiting your time, you’re more than just a wife
You don’t want to do what your mother has done
She has done
This is your life, this new life has begun
It’s your day - a woman’s day
It’s your day - a woman’s day

Turning the tide, you are on the incoming wave
Turning the tide, you know you are nobody’s slave
[ 1989 version - find your brothers and sisters ]
[ 1990 version - find your sisters and brothers ]
Who can hear all the truth in what you say
They can support you when you’re on your way
It’s your day - a woman’s day
It’s your day - a woman’s day

Souma yergon, sou nou yergon, we are shakin’ the tree
Souma yergon, sou nou yergon, we are shakin’ the tree
Souma yergon, sou nou yergon, we are shakin’ the tree

[ extra lyrics from 1989 12 remix ]

There’s nothing to gain when there’s nothing to be lost
There’s nothing to gain if you stay behind and count the cost
Make the decision that you can be who you can be
You can be
Tasting the fruit come to the liberty tree
It’s your day - a woman’s day
It’s your day - a woman’s day

[ end of extra lyrics from 12 remix ]

Changing your ways, changing those surrounding you
Changing your ways, more than any man can do
Open your heart, show him the anger and pain, so you heal
Maybe he’s looking for his womanly side, let him feel

You had to be so strong
And you do nothing wrong
Nothing wrong at all
We’re gonna to break it down
We have to shake it down
Shake it all around

Souma yergon, sou nou yergon, we are shakin’ the tree
Souma yergon, sou nou yergon, we are shakin’ the tree
Souma yergon, sou nou yergon, we are shakin’ the tree

[Zombiewire]

Again Steve Hensen nailed the East side pins problem on the donkeys. Cheers Steve!

I grew up on the East side and went to Park View and Risley. All my neighbors then kept their yards so plush up and down 7th street. We kids would play out in the street with out the worry of some low life gang banger shooting randomly while running the streets.





Don't give up on the East Side


The Chieftain's series "East Side Story" that concluded Saturday put a harsh spotlight on a once-proud neighborhood in decline.

The series described in great detail the community and its problems, but it didn't present many solutions. That wasn't the intent of the series. The intent was, given the high-profile violence there in the past few months, to take an in-depth look at the East Side.
http://www.chieftain.com/metro/1155479146/7

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Well, what happened to the East Side, is pretty much what happens in all of the older parts of town . . Home Owners with families and jobs, keep their properties up. There's a number of reasons, but needless to say, almost always, when you see a nice home, whether in Belmont, Pueblo West or the East Side . . the people who live there own it . .

In parts of the older sections you'll see many rentals, some areas more than others . . but you'll know them when you see them . . and while I'm not intending to pick on any ethnic or racial group, you'll notice the worst kept properties are usually PHA or rent subsidized . . for some reason . . that seems to be where the Gangsta's live or party, often, also.

Do you see a pattern here?

Many of the landlords must be forced by zoning or the building inspectors to keep thier properties habitable in some cases . . and of course, it seems, in quite a few cases, that the tenants work just as hard to vandalize, tear up and steal from the properties . . they damned sure don't take pride in or care for it!

I see it to a degree in my own neighborhood on the South Side . . On the other side of the coin, there's a "Homeowner" who got a CHAPA loan on a house Two doors down. It was a neat 3 BR brick two story . . now the yard looks like a Junk Yard, the doors are hanging off their jambs, weeds grow in the yard . . so I'm not bringing a "Blanket Indictment" against renters and landlords . . But . . .

[Lexi]

Out of curiosity, how many people posting here now live or have ever taken up residence in a gaming town?

[Zombiewire]

In his comments, he also pledged that he would not let Bessemer "turn into the East Side."


"To the people of the East Side, I apologize for the remarks. If they offended anybody, they weren't intended to do that in any way, shape or form. They were said in a moment of passion and as a point of reference of what I saw happening in the city."

Aguilera made his initial remarks during a public meeting last week, when council resisted a push to purchase the former So-Lo grocery store and turn it into a community and recreation center for the Bessemer neighborhood.

Aguilera noted that of the three neighborhoods that compose the "Y" district - the East Side, Hyde Park and Bessemer- only Bessemer was without a recreation or community center.

In his comments, he also pledged that he would not let Bessemer "turn into the East Side."

.................................................. ...........CITY COUNCILMAN UP.............................


I see no problem with this comment. Everyone knows what the East side has turned into. It is going to take the leaders of Pueblo to call it what it is and not side step the problem. The problem needs to be repaired and that takes acknowledgement and then plan the repair and consequently repair the problem.
His apology is side stepping or minimizing the problem on the East Site.
Come on ... City Councilman Ray Aguilera ...........Man Up!

[Lexi]

I see that my question has been avoided.

Isn't it quite possible that people who've never lived in a gaming community have no idea of the problems that could be in store if gaming were allowed in their community?

You allow one casino in town, there's an open door to more, whether they are Native owned or not. And, there are an entire host of urban developmental programs that go along with that, including empty promises and so on and so forth.

I did happen to live in a gaming community once, and I'll never make that mistake again. It wasn't a pretty sight, although at first I enjoyed the pretty lights and the hustle and bustle of the people. But, upon taking a closer look, I saw and experienced first hand the nightmare behind the mask: Increased rate of homelessness and drug abuse, homeless families gambling their welfare money away along with their food stamps; people being mugged for their casino chips; increased crime and gang activity, increased illegal residency, illegals being given the jobs in the casinos, increased traffic, increased accidents, increased trash littering the streets, increased taxes to pay for the "new" police department and "new" training, increased car insurance, increased ER care, decreased hospital bills being paid, hospitals closing because of bankrupcy, increased cost of medical care for the area, over crowded jails, over crowded schools, higher demand on the utilities, higher cost of utilities because of the demand -- the list is endless.

Perhaps the city of Pueblo wasn't too interested in making plans for this in light of the rather vague answers to questions presented about how things would be dealt with. I think, under the circumstances, the city did the right thing turning it down, it had nothing to do with fear of change and growth opportunities and everything to do with the fact that you don't conduct business with unanswered questions and poor planning.

People who haven't the foggiest idea of what's behind the scenes in urban planning and development scream and hollar about not getting this and not getting that, failing to think about the long term consequences of entering into such a thing without having all of your ducks in a row first.

I think Ray Aguilerra is terrific, and from what he's told me, the Casino idea was pretty well poo-poo'd by other council members as well, and with very good reason.

I strongly suggest, Z, that the next time you want to complain about something, do your homework first. You're doing an excelleng job of researching and discussing the RFID tag issue, if you'd do the same with city issues, you'd have a very good perspective of what it takes to run the place.

It's much easier to complain about what you don't have than to appreciate what you do have, isn't it?

[Zombiewire]

Lexi Darling, I was stating my opinion concerning what Mr smart guy Councilman stated for so sorry for his terms . I feel his first statement was fare and accurate judgment call and he should have stood by his first inclination of the "problemization" (Jesse Jackson) and work on "deproblemizating the situation" (again Jesse quote) ..........oh one more thing once an East Sider Always an East Sider A














I see that my question has been avoided.

Isn't it quite possible that people who've never lived in a gaming community have no idea of the problems that could be in store if gaming were allowed in their community?

You allow one casino in town, there's an open door to more, whether they are Native owned or not. And, there are an entire host of urban developmental programs that go along with that, including empty promises and so on and so forth.

I did happen to live in a gaming community once, and I'll never make that mistake again. It wasn't a pretty sight, although at first I enjoyed the pretty lights and the hustle and bustle of the people. But, upon taking a closer look, I saw and experienced first hand the nightmare behind the mask: Increased rate of homelessness and drug abuse, homeless families gambling their welfare money away along with their food stamps; people being mugged for their casino chips; increased crime and gang activity, increased illegal residency, illegals being given the jobs in the casinos, increased traffic, increased accidents, increased trash littering the streets, increased taxes to pay for the "new" police department and "new" training, increased car insurance, increased ER care, decreased hospital bills being paid, hospitals closing because of bankrupcy, increased cost of medical care for the area, over crowded jails, over crowded schools, higher demand on the utilities, higher cost of utilities because of the demand -- the list is endless.

Perhaps the city of Pueblo wasn't too interested in making plans for this in light of the rather vague answers to questions presented about how things would be dealt with. I think, under the circumstances, the city did the right thing turning it down, it had nothing to do with fear of change and growth opportunities and everything to do with the fact that you don't conduct business with unanswered questions and poor planning.

People who haven't the foggiest idea of what's behind the scenes in urban planning and development scream and hollar about not getting this and not getting that, failing to think about the long term consequences of entering into such a thing without having all of your ducks in a row first.

I think Ray Aguilerra is terrific, and from what he's told me, the Casino idea was pretty well poo-poo'd by other council members as well, and with very good reason.

I strongly suggest, Z, that the next time you want to complain about something, do your homework first. You're doing an excelleng job of researching and discussing the RFID tag issue, if you'd do the same with city issues, you'd have a very good perspective of what it takes to run the place.

It's much easier to complain about what you don't have than to appreciate what you do have, isn't it?

[Lexi]

Z, I was referring more to your support of the Casino than your remarks about Councilman Aguilerra.

By the way, speaking of East Side, I really think some of those East Siders should form a neighbourhood watch and run those gangs out of there, but that's another topic for another time.

Oh, and by the way --

I WANT LOWES. (Now people are protesting LOWES!!! Unbelievable!)

I think they should move into that old Hobby Lobby in Sunset Plaza, or that old other place that's in the Pueblo Ave shopping center at Northern. It's bigger than the old hobby lobby place and has more parking, and it's just sitting there as empty as empty can be -- why not use it instead of building a new place elsewhere, and it's already zoned for commercial use. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

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But, that's not what's gonna happen . . they're going to build at Prairie and Pueblo Blvd . . Why?

Two reasons . .

One . . Because they can . .

Two . . They'll OWN the property . .

other than that . .

[Lexi]

well, probably the other properties are too small, anyway. But I don't see what the problem is, there are enough surrounding businesses in the area already, what's one more? Plus, I like Lowes and Home Depot, both, so I'd welcome either one of them into the neighbourhood.

Thing is, if it hurts the little hardware store that's by the bowling alley in Sunset Plaza, I'd feel kinda bad for that guy, he has a nice little store there.

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OK, Lowes is a "Stand Alone" retailer . . they really don't care whether there's stores next to them or not . . Based upon their marketing criteria . .

Ashley's? I don't think they'll be hurt at all . . unless you're an un-informed person . .

They stock stuff that Lowes and Home Depot don't have . .or don't have with the quality . . I shop there almost daily . . for one thing or another . .

[Lexi]

Yeah, I don't go in there much, but aren't they like a mom & pop outfit? I don't like the idea of big businesses running the mom & pops out of business, but at the same time, I really like Lowes and Home Depot both, and if we can get them both in the same neighbourhood, that would be awesome so that I can benefit from their price wars :D

[large]

YOU are the reason "Mom and Pops" go out of business . .

A locally owned small business cannot compete with any of the large chains, pricewise . . they just don't have the buying power . . They compete only in the abstract, selling some like items stocked by the big stores, but often theirs is of better quality, or you can buy certain items like nuts and bolts, nails, etc. Unpackaged.

Lowes, when it was "Eagle Hdwe", carried a large selection of Fasteners, hardly equaled by even specialty sellers, but recently . . I find Ashley's has a better selection . . .

Another reason to trade in the smaller stores is the convienance. You don't have to wander all over Hell's Half Acre to find the "One" item you went after . . Walk in, ask Herschel, he'll either go get it or help you find it, and you're outta there . .

It usually takes me that long to park and walk into Lowes . . not to mention driving clear across town . . the cost of the gas alone makes up for any difference in price.

[Lexi]

Not ME, Large -- it's a combination of circumstance, the economy and my extremely tight budget.

And GOD BLESS the MOM & POPs, I love them, but a financially tight person like myself has to shop where the prices are affordable. If I could afford to shop at Mom & Pops, I most certainly would do so, but economics demand otherwise from me, I don't have the financial luxury of purchasing name brand products or products at a higher prices that I can find at lower cost elsewhere.

Don't blame me for the reason why Mom & Pops go out of business, blame the economy. I'm not exactly rich here, and with the seriousness of my ill health over the past year, I'm basically unemployable (I couldn't even hold a job at Convergy's, and that's the easiest job in the world!). I was forced, by my poor health, to close my company, too, and I won't apply for welfare; It'll probably be a while before I see anything from disability, I'm fighting with them to at least get out of it what I put into it, but because I missed so many working quarters while being a housewife, I'm told suddenly that I don't qualify. There are a lot of other people in this world who fall into the same boat as me, too.

By the way, I shop at WalMart, too. (:P@Zombie)

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Not good enough . . You labor under misconception. Home Depot is hardly the cheapest place to buy many things . . Flooring, for instance. Very little choice, and Sam's Floor Covering has them covered on price . . In just about every type and style . . Tools, hardly any choice of make, and very few "specialty" tools . . . The cheapest place to buy the best available tools is Sears . . Same with Lowe's as with Home Depot, they have reverted to "just another Discount Store" as far as Variety and brand names . . I guess, so that they can both sponsor $10 million Dollar NASCAR Racing Programs . .

But they're basically following the Costco Concept . . less inventory by less duplication of products by different manufacturers.

[Lexi]

Costco. Now there's another place I'd like to see move into the area.

Home Depot has a nice variety, and some things there are pretty inexpensive, especially when they have sales. As for quality, they have some good and some poor, but they have a pretty good return policy, too.

I'm not too impressed with Sears quality, although theCraftsman tools are alright. I haven't found Sears to be that inexpensive, but then again, I haven't shopped there for a few years, maybe things have changed since I last shopped in a Sears.

I have to admit, I miss the Sears Coffee shops, though.