A Parallel Universe?

[Zen Curmudgeon]

http://www.historychannel.com/tdih/tdih.jsp?category=vietnamwar&month=10272962&day=10272980

October 15, 1966

Operation Attleboro continues in Tay Ninh Province

U.S. troops move into Tay Ninh Province near the Cambodian border, about 50 miles north of Saigon, and sweep the area in search of Viet Cong as part of Operation Attleboro, which had begun in September.

The purpose of this operation was to find and eliminate all enemy troops west of the Michelin rubber plantation. It was the largest U.S. operation to date and included elements of the U.S. 1st and 25th Infantry Divisions; the 196th Light Infantry Brigade; the 173rd Airborne Brigade; and at least two South Vietnamese army battalions. Engagements continued through the middle of November. At the height of the fighting, a record 20,000 Allied troops were committed. They were opposed by major elements of the 9th Viet Cong Division, one of the best-trained Communist formations. Communist resistance was strong because the Tay Ninh area contained the site of the principal Viet Cong command center for guerrilla operations in South Vietnam and the central office of the National Liberation Front. Operation Attleboro ended on November 25. By then, 2130 Viet Cong and North Vietnamese troops had been killed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/15/politics/15syria.html?th=&adxnnl=1&emc=th&adxnnlx=1129403321-GllgGtAI4mBoupKs2N86sw

G.I.'s and Syrians in Tense Clashes on Iraqi Border

By JAMES RISEN and DAVID E. SANGER
Published: October 15, 2005

WASHINGTON, Oct. 14 - A series of clashes in the last year between American and Syrian troops, including a prolonged firefight this summer that killed several Syrians, has raised the prospect that cross-border military operations may become a dangerous new front in the Iraq war, according to current and former military and government officials.

The firefight, between Army Rangers and Syrian troops along the border with Iraq, was the most serious of the conflicts with President Bashar al-Assad's forces, according to American and Syrian officials.

It illustrated the dangers facing American troops as Washington tries to apply more political and military pressure on a country that President Bush last week labeled one of the "allies of convenience" with Islamic extremists. He also named Iran.

One of Mr. Bush's most senior aides, who declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the subject, said that so far American military forces in Iraq had moved right up to the border to cut off the entry of insurgents, but he insisted that they had refrained from going over it.

But other officials, who say they got their information in the field or by talking to Special Operations commanders, say that as American efforts to cut off the flow of fighters have intensified, the operations have spilled over the border - sometimes by accident, sometimes by design.

Take Care -

ZC

[Zen Curmudgeon]

November 7, 1964 U.S. intelligence asserts numbers of North Vietnamese in South Vietnam growing

The latest U.S. intelligence analysis claims that Communist forces in South Vietnam now include about 30,000 professional full-time soldiers, many of whom are North Vietnamese. Before this, it was largely reported that the war was merely an internal insurgent movement in South Vietnam opposed to the government in Saigon. This information discredited that theory and indicated that the situation involves North and South Vietnam.

In Saigon, the South Vietnamese government banned the sale of the current issue of Newsweek because it carried a photograph showing a Viet Cong prisoner being tortured by South Vietnamese army personnel.

Take Care -

ZC

[Zen Curmudgeon]

November 19, 1967

The Senate Foreign Relations Committee unanimously passes a resolution to curb the commitment of U.S. armed forces and a resolution urging the President Johnson to take the initiative to have the Vietnamese conflict brought before the United Nations Security Council.

November 18, 2005

On Thursday, Representative John P. Murtha of Pennsylvania, a Vietnam combat veteran and one of the House's most respected members on military matters, called for pulling out the 153,000 American troops within six months, saying they had become a catalyst for the continuing violence in Iraq. His plan also called for a quick-reaction force in the region, perhaps based in Kuwait, and for pursuing stability in Iraq through diplomacy.

But House Republicans planned to put to a vote - and reject - their own nonbinding alternative resolution that simply said: "It is the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately."

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Let's see if the "Chicken Hawks" In Congress will lose this war just like they did Vietnam . . . While the Whiners" P & M about 2000 GI's, they can't see that this one is about something bigger than a sand pile and a bunch of ragheads killing each other. There is a very large contingent of 2 billion "Believers" that want to rule the world. They want what we have, but with the laws of Sharia . . . .

Talk to most of the Troops who come back, they believe in what is being done there, and most would go back again . . Not to mention, those young people have invested Life and Limb to see that those people have a shot at self determination . . .

So who are these people who would abandon that effort? Politicians, basic low lifes that would spend the blood that has been sacrificed to better their political stature. And, I have to add to that group, the Media, who never comment on the atrocities of the enemy, but upon all of the microscopic crap that some individual has done in the heat of combat . .

The average American actually doesn't even understand the question, and won't take a damned minute to find out . . . They're too busy satisfying their every gratification and with the 7 minute attention span that television has trained them for, expect a World War to be fought and won in the same time a video game can be played!

[Zen Curmudgeon]

Let's see if the "Chicken Hawks" In Congress will lose this war just like they did Vietnam . . . While the Whiners" P & M about 2000 GI's, they can't see that this one is about something bigger than a sand pile and a bunch of ragheads killing each other. There is a very large contingent of 2 billion "Believers" that want to rule the world. They want what we have, but with the laws of Sharia . . . .So, if I understand you correctly, victory is defined as Muslims living under Shari-a without any of our stuff (or maybe with our stuff but without Shari-a)?

Isn't that pretty much the description of the way things were before we invaded Iraq? Or am I missing your point?

Take Care -

ZC

[large]

Actually that's the "way it was" right up to about 1965, when the Fundamentalist Islamic movement first began, way before it was called "Islamofacism" . . . the "Politically Correct" types have refused to call it what it is and has been for over 30 years . .

Islamofacism is spreading as an Idea, taught by the Wahabbists, who believe in a Holy War to create a Caliphate of the entire world . . while bin Laden and his Lieutenants are the West's targets, they are only the current militant mastheads . . If the idea isn't crushed, with the introduction of a free democracy in the Middle East, then the lefties better start learning Arabic, and hope they can convince them that they're "Believers".

While I'm not an enthuiast of how we got where we were necessarily, but Your Congressman as well as mine helped get us there . . and while they constantly accuse Dubya of being "Dumb" now they're Pi**ing and Moaning about being "Tricked" . . which one is it? And we're there, have made great investment, and now, most of the same bunch that got us there wants to "Short Sell" . .

You choose to listen to a bunch of idiots who only have their own short term interests at heart?

[Zen Curmudgeon]

Islamofacism is spreading as an Idea, taught by the Wahabbists, who believe in a Holy War to create a Caliphate of the entire world . .
...If the idea isn't crushed, with the introduction of a free democracy in the Middle East, then the lefties better start learning Arabic, and hope they can convince them that they're "Believers".I don't quite see how a "free democracy" can be used to control what people think and say ("if the idea isn't crushed"), but of even more concern is your suggestion that a democratic Middle East is the definition of success for our policy there.

During the ramp up to the Iraq invasion, a common dissenting comment was "You can't install democracy at gunpoint". I can think of two examples to contradict that, but they don't bode well for us leaving Iraq anytime soon. We did impose democracy on Germany and Japan after WWII, but it took decades before stability was achieved.

So if the forcible imposition of democracy is the goal, are we prepared to spend much, much more American life and wealth in a decades-long effort to achieve it? Is that the definition of victory?

Take Care -

ZC

[large]

Uh, have you talked to anyone who has been there?

Obviously not . . .

There is no "Forcible Democracy", but they have been given a chane to guide their own fortunes, and there's still a good chance it won't come off as we might like it to . . Iran has it's eye on the power vacuum there . . . but they have been givn a better chance of self government than they would have had if they, themselves would've overthrown Saddam Hussien without our help . . Iran would've jumped in, assimulated all the Shiites, and killed all the Sunnis and the Kurds . .

As far as assuring a pure democracy, the kind we enjoy will never be there, nor anyplace else for that matter . . that's B.S. dreamed up by the politicians, not reality. A stable government, represenative of the majority, not wanting to wage war on everybody around them is probably the best we can hope for in any case. And in that Neighborhood, that's an accomplishment!

[DMad]

You know, it's hard for me to see a lot of positives in Iraq so far. I know, progress is being made, but Americans continue (and will for some time) pay the price. Granted, it took decades for democracies in Germany and Japan to take hold, so maybe I just need to be patient. But these countries did not have the incredible religious division that exists in Iraq. Iraqis don't just hate us, they hate each other, too.

[large]

While one American life is probably too much to pay for Iraqi self government, for every American who dies in this effort, over a hundred Iraqi citizens have died, by the hand of the terrorists (or insurgents, if you choose to use the term) . . . that's a statistical fact . .

The news media never brings that out. Nor does it ever show the positives gained there. You have to talk to the troops who have been there to learn that. Most of them would go back, and go through the whole deal again, because they know they're making a difference. I have had several as students, and in the end, most of 'em re-upped and went back . . that tells me something . . because two of them had good jobs when they got out . .

The politicians will lose the whole damned thing if it's left up to them, as they did 30 years ago. But I do agree with several things Joe Biden said today. And that is to get an idea about what is needed and then do it. Either lead, follow or get the hell out of the way! But do it . . currently the administration has fumbled around like an old fisherman with alzhiemer's . . and that isn't going to get it done!

And honestly, in that area, I don't believe it's religion as much as "Tribalism" . . Those people are worse than the Hatfields and the McCoys . . . Some families are still trying to get even over something that happened over Five-Six generations ago . . And families comprise entire towns over there!

[Zen Curmudgeon]

But I do agree with several things Joe Biden said today. And that is to get an idea about what is needed and then do it. And here we agree, too, large. When the current Administration feels threatened it accuses its critics of wanting to "lose" the war, but it seems unable to clearly define "win". Rumsfeld, Cheney, et al, have all the resources necessary to answer that question but don't seem to have the will.

Take Care -

ZC

[large]

Honestly, I, nor probably anyone else walking around, could define the term "Win" in this one. But if the Iraqis can have a relatively stable government after a couple of years, and maybe it'll rub off on some of those other little fiefdoms over there, maybe it'll be worth it.

But until the Idea that the Islamofacists want that world wide Caliphate is sundered under by the majority of the Muslim world . . we got problems . .

When that idea is dead, then we will have "Won" . . .