The Planned Toll Road

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just got through watching the KOAA-TV News . . If you choose to call it that . . .

They have been doing a series on the proposed North-South Toll Road/Railway that bypasses all the cities that grid lock I-25 during traffic hours. And it smacks of the same one sided innuendo that the Chieftain started with about the Wal-Mart Warehouse. Few if any facts . . Poor people are being "Dis-Possed" of their property by some almost invisible giant corporation . . . as well as a few prairie dogs and coyotes losing their domiciles.

God Forbid we could drive past Denver and it's crowded extremities post-haste. Our State operated Highway department hasn't the backbone to limit cross-town and local traffic on the Interstate Highway system . . . So why can't some Company put up the cash, build a smooth 4 lane highway, and charge those of us who want to drive safely North without the Colorado Springs/South Denver bottleneck? And even if given the Right of Eminent Domain that most other public works and developers have, I'm sure most of that Prairie and Scrub Cedar would be paid for fairly . . .

I wonder if it would be possible to hear (or read) a totally objective report about the whole deal.

[gettingold66]

I agree with your commentary regarding the "super slab". I would certainly use it to get around the larger cities. I do have one question. I read in the Denver Post that the designers are using a 12 mile wide swath to construct their super highway. My question is why do they need 12 miles. I can only suspect that they are looking to the future to build their own facilities such as gas stations, food outlets, etc.

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Well, after I wrote that, and conversed with a couple of News Directors, Greg Boyce of KOAA provided me with the most information, which was probably a half a paragraph more than I already knew. No disrespect meant to Greg, because there still isn't much public Information out there . . Thus, I dug a little.

Here's what I know . . .

Ray Wells, a CPA, seized on the idea of a Toll Road before 1986 and using a State Toll Road and The right of Eminent Domain laws established when the State Constution was Written and made law, established a legal right to the "estimated" route of his road. And there it languished . .

About five years ago, the Colorado State Highway Commission put forward a study, stating that, by 2025, the North-South I-25 would be "Grid-Locked" due to the projected Trucking that would use that particular route. And at that time apparently, Ray Wells started looking for investors . . and now he has 'em . . but by agreement, won't say who they are . . moot point.

And, of course, you've probably seen one or another rendition of the "Aproximate Route" shown on a map of the front range. A 12 mile wide "Orange" swath east of the metro areas, going through mostly "Undeveloped" areas . . And this has the entire eastern part of the counties involved in an uproar . . Everybody who has either an interest or property inside that Orange swath or easement, as we'll refer to it from now on, is worried or hoping, one or the other . . That "they're gonna put a road over Gramma's grave!" . . probably not . . . the easement represents the area that the engineers will look for the best and cheapest route North to South, property aquisition costs being a major consideration. That means they probably won't be building a road down anybody's main street! Prairie Dog Towns are cheaper than developments, homes, ranches and/or Cemetaries to buy.

Right of Eminent domain gives no one the right to TAKE property. However it does give the party who seeks the "Greater Good for the majority" the right to negotiate for, buy or in some cases, condemn property, buying it for established market value, rather than paying the owner inflated prices for it. 99% of the time, property owners actually recieve more than they could've, had they placed the same property on the open market, for sale to any buyer. Based on observations during the recent widening of I-25 in Pueblo, most recieved more than their property was worth. there may be exceptions, but I believe that to be the case.

Presently FRTR probably has no more idea of the exact location of the centerline of said road than I do . . . But in the end there will be a 660 Foot wide Highway, 3 sets of Railroad tracks and a one mile "Buffer" zone on each side . . . The buffer zone being there so we don't end up with the same people who build at the end of a Aircraft Runway, then sue to shut down the airport!

The Access/Egress on this highway will be limited to 13 (present plan) points, and there will be "Service Pods" every so often, with motel/food/fuel available . .

As a former Planner, I'm depending upon what I know of past projects elsewhere as much as the information provided by FRTR, as they have been either close mouthed about their plans . or haven't made any "concrete" plans yet, due to pending appraisals, and primary engineering. another possible delay will be dealing with each County the route crosses. HB 1030 was supposed to standardize the tolls charged in each county (the counties, by law may dictate the amount charged at the present time) but the minority showed up and the Senate Committee showed what they're made of . . they folded!

But with or without HB1030, the project is apparently a go . . it'll be fun to watch!

[stupidslab]

There will be a meeting to organize opposition to the proposed Front Range Toll Road
(Super Slab) on Weds. April 6 at 7PM in the Pueblo County High School
auditorium. There will be speakers from the Eastern Plains Coalition (El
Paso County) and Toll Road Warriors (Elbert County) as well as from Pueblo
County. Topics to be discussed will include eminent domain, the economic
effects on Pueblo, I-25 traffic, railroads, farming, county roads and
property values. FRTR plans to build this road somewhere in a 12 mile wide
corridor between Santa Fe Ave. in downtown Pueblo and 44th Lane. The
corridor runs all the way from El Paso County in the north to Huerfano
County in the south. The recent defeat of HB-1030 has NOT stopped plans for
this road.

Information at http://stupidslab.home.mindspring.com/Home
and www.nosuperslab.org

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No, there is no new Information on the toll road . . . .

I went to the meeting at Pueblo County High that was advertised as an "Informational Meeting", hoping to hear something new or at least see what the "Coalition of Opposition" Group had to say . . .

First, No News . . . FRTR isn't saying ANYTHING . . that they haven't already said in their old press releases and the statements to the House and Senate . . . Wells got his boob in th' wringer when he said something about "Only 200 people would be affected" and he hasn't said much since! Of course, if they're not saying anything, there's nothing for anybody to counter with . . So to speak . . .

Second, I just can't square the things the "Opposition" says with the facts . . Don't get me wrong here, there are reasons that justify these people's reluctance to go along with the Idea . . . . But, there really needs to be "Facts" presented in Lieu of Innuendo and "Scare Tactics" . . .

I'm not going to publish their argument format here, suffice to say, some is right, some is fuzzy, and some is just plain wrong . . . . . IF you can read and comprehend, you can figure most of it out yourself . . . of course, the people the "Coalition of Opposition" appeal to are people who usually pay no attention to MSM, and more or less live their lives doing what they do . . . . Don't read th' Paper much, th' tube is a diversion, not a source of reliable news, etc . . . Several people I know out there, told me, "This was the first they had heard of it!" And some after the meeting, were in an almost state of shock!

And that was because of the "Scare" feelings that were espoused at the meeting . . one of the "CoO" was telling people that the Road Company was going to condemn a Two mile wide swath "Right Thru here" pointing to an area just east of the St. Charles Mesa, and further saying, that they would only be "Paid" for the 660 foot Right of Way for the immediate road . . . . Now this wasn't part of the presentation, but hey, let's play "Rumor" here . . . Kinda like hollering "FIRE" in a theatre . . . somebody's gonna get excited!

This group COULD be a great asset to all involved, IF, they would get past the Emotional Sales Pitch . . . there are rural counties who have little or no planning agencies . . And a big company that can build a superhighway, if not watched by planners and citizens, can severely injure whole rural communities . . . Politicians follow the money, so they're no asset to the communities affected.

A "Watchdog" group would be a terrific asset . . but they must have a factual basis for their being, not based on emotion and "Heresay" . . A group like this has to have creditability, above reproach, actually, and no agenda other than seeing to it that a large company doesn't wipe out or handicap whole communities . . .

Preaching the Idea that FRTR can do as it wants, isolating communities from emergency support, taking of property for either less than market value or requiring long drawn out legal battles that will cost the property owner as much as $63,000 (that was an often quoted figure by several speakers) or, the Constutionality of it all. That was questioned by Chuck Shaw, and although he spent over 20 minutes on this thesis, the question was . . If in it's 200+ years time as a ruleset, why hasn't it been ruled Unconstutional by both the Colorado Supreme Court and The "Supremes" . .

That's when I left, as did others . . Th' poor horse has been beaten til' it's no more than Kibbles and Bits . . . Common sense and precedence has to rule sometime . . a few follow up calls the next morning, to some of the people I saw at the meeting, showed almost as much skepticism about the "Opposition" as it did about the road . . with the leading question most of them asked; "Which one was the Lawyer that's gonna get rich?"

Couldn't tell them . . . All of the "Opposition" claims to be just "VICTIMS" of the Toll Road. and they claim that over 5000 families will be also . . . Yet NO ONE, probably including Ray Wells, could tell you where the center line ROW is going to be . . with all that information, we could be "VICTIMS" of an earthquake first.

[Amberthebrat]

Some People will do anything to make a quick dollar.

This is horrible what this so called man is doing. Our econnomy is going down the drain now and then someone like this pops his little rat self into the picture. We are currently paying over $2.20 per gallon of gas, house prices are rising wether you rent or own,cost of kids, clothing, grocries are going up because of the gas prices to deleiver to stores. I know my pay check is not seeing an increase when will it ever end. Maybe we will get lucky and this rat will get a little something called Karma.

[Amberthebrat]

Mr. Super Slab installer, ( Just incase you don't understand this is called sarcastic )

I'm sure all those people who have lived in there houses for years, paid houses off, inherited houses, passed down houses through generations will be glad to have there memories DEMOLISHED so you can make money. Then turn around and buy another house since prices have risen since there house was bought. All for Mr Importaint Super Slab!!!

The average American has enough money troubles, how can you live with your self and add to it. Oh yeah it's because your rich, and don't care about others. It will not affect you, so why should it be a problem? It doesn't matter that Little John and Little Jane built a fort and have years of memories. It doesn't matter that when 2 young people fell in love they carved there initials in a tree, that will soon be torn down. Have you ever heard the term if it's not broke don't fix it? Well you have now and if you don't understand you can ask someone whos not rich to explain it to you.

BITTER you ask? Yes I am bitter because you obviously are hurting a lot of people, and don't care. I have a little advise Thoughts are real things, and Karma will take the natural course. So don't do anything heartless, cruel, or negative. You need to look at the whole picture. Think of others before yourself. Be a good person, an not so hateful. It really sounds like you need to dedicate yourself and volunteer your precious time at hospice, a childrens hospital ward, a cancer unit, a burn unit, or some where like that.

I really hope you can change your life

[Amberthebrat]

I really hope all the construction workers say that they refuse to work on this project. Without any kind of labor to pull this off what would be done?

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Amber, are you on the right thread?

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OK, I've been kind of keeping another forum elsewhere up on the Toll Road, and in the conversations someone asked about the people who are actually going to be affected, how come nobody has heard from them? Most of them aren't really sure if or how they will be affected . . but I lived on 40th lane years ago, so I still know a few people out there. And one of the people I know is the "Spokesman" for the opposition in Pueblo County, a Farmer, who could have his and his family's lives affected greatly by the coming of this project . . . This is a post from the other forum . . .

OK, Lessee if I can kind of paraphrase my friend Joe Pantaleo here . . while we've agreed to disagree once in a while, we still respect each other and here's his point of view . . .

He sez; "I've built this farm . . it represents more than just Property . . as a Farmer it represents how I support my Family . . it has allowed my children to learn and do things they wouldn't have, had I not been here . . and it's my legacy to them if they'll have it" . . so I hope you can understand Joe's point . . I do . . .

On the other hand, there's people out there with Prairie Dog towns or a double wide on 40 acres that might make considerably more than the property is worth . . I can only hope, when the lines are drawn, they don't go through one of my friend's farms or Living Room.

But as I've said before . . Progress is a Bitch, and every once in a while she must be fed!

Growth on the front range alludes to some sort of additional highway . . where, when, and who's gonna pay for it is a big debate . . the State would rather go through the pains of a Toll Road than have to dig for the funding . . the counties are laying back, looking at a potential windfall for them . . the people who might be in the way are holding their collective breaths because no one has a clue yet exactly where, so everybody feels like a target . . . In Pueblo 75% of the traffic on the I is local, north of Garden of the Gods Road to Colorado Blvd in Denver is somewhere over 85% local and swelling every time a new house goes up in Douglas or El Paso County . . . . And while the truck and thru traffic on I-25 hasn't changed much in the last 10 years, the local traffic is approaching gridlock, so if we can "Vent" 25% of the traffic on the I to a toll road, I guess, so be it.

That's pretty much a quick encapsulation of this thing . . And if it's built, even with the best planning and the lowest impact on the residents of that area . . some lives will be disrupted, or displaced . . and in some cases, money alone won't make up for it, so whaddya do?

And last night the City Council stuck their collective noses in the mix . . One of the Rocket Scientists noting; "if those truckers don't go through Pueblo, they're buying their gas somewhere else!" That should be a hint as to where they're gonna go . . .

[Zen Curmudgeon]

Toll Roads Tackle Traffic
Associated Press

Story location: http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,67828,00.html

08:13 AM Jun. 12, 2005 PT

SAN DIEGO -- Interstate 15 running north from San Diego is more than a ribbon of asphalt carrying up to 295,000 vehicles a day. It's a glimpse at the future -- a highway that combines traditionally free lanes with toll lanes to give drivers an option when the traffic gets bad. It is, at once, a solution for easing the worst traffic congestion, raising money for cash-starved roads and a big step toward bringing more timesaving, high-technology tools to daily driving.

The difference from old tolls? The new system combines the latest technologies with good, old capitalism -- putting a price tag on a bit of uncongested roadway. San Diego's version nudges drivers to car pools and to mass transit, with part of its revenues going for high-speed buses that designers promise will outperform trains.

There's more at the link. I can mention from experience that the Denver HOT works pretty well: by reducing traffic volume in the free lanes, you can sometimes approach the speed limit. :)

Take Care -

ZC

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In CDOT's current projected plan "Visions 3000" they project an extension of Powers Blvd. from North Colorado Springs as a "combination toll road and thru way" although if the FRTR becomes reality it'll probably be shelved . . . . there's mention of other similar combinations in the Denver Metro Area . . . .

[Zen Curmudgeon]

Posted on Thu, Jun. 23, 2005

Governments can seize private land, high court rules

By Stephen Henderson

Knight Ridder Newspapers

"WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court on Thursday said the Constitution doesn't prohibit local governments from seizing private property for other private uses, so long as it's developed for the public benefit.

The 5-4 ruling clears the way for New London, Conn., to condemn some private homes for a new office and retail complex. It gives other cities and towns more leeway to buy and raze homes, churches and other properties that yield little tax revenue to make way for shopping malls or office buildings, even if they aren't in blighted areas."

As some of you may remember our Guvna vetoed legislation that would have killed the Super Slab project. Now, toll road backers may see a chance to reimpose their for-profit scheme on unwilling victims, who now have no legal means to preserve their property rights.

I guess this is what President Bush refers to as the "ownership society", huh?

A Constitutional amendment could restore private property rights to ordinary people, but Congress is busy preparing Constitutional amendments to prevent gay marriage and prohibit flag burning. There seems to be a little distance between the interests of the majority party and the concerns of regular people.

Take Care -

ZC

[Hell To Pay]

It's the 5 leftists on the Supreme Court who were the ones to gladly approve of private property snatching by corrupt government, not the 4 conservatives, not Bush, and not the Repubs. Get a clue.

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Another totally out of whack statement! Where in the hell do you guys come up with this stuff?

Zen sez . . . .

"Now, toll road backers may see a chance to reimpose their for-profit scheme on unwilling victims, who now have no legal means to preserve their property rights."

Unquote . . . .

"Kelo" and the case perceding it, "Beeman" has not a damned thing to do with the Toll Road that is currently being discussed and generally dissed by those who know less than nothing about any part of it!

Beeman was about "where and what", "Kelo" is about "Who" and the whole case has to do with the rights of Urban Renewal Authorities to exercise Right of Eminent Domain . . . It had absolutely nothing to do with toll roads in any context nor the rights of private entities to use the powers of the Right of Eminent Domain. And neither case removes the Right of Due Process, and actually reminds the powers to be that a hearing IS necessary at the git go.

Go read your case law before you go any further . . . .

And I'm neither for or against the Toll Road, but truth is being bent, twisted and often completely forgotten in the emotional "Sky is Falling" tone of some of the opposition and the "Nativists" . . . .

[Digger Dan]

Unplanned growth of the past is leading to an unplanned road to the future. If you want to see the front range as it was when I was a boy you are going to have to go to Wyoming. In "Beyond the Sangres" Wesley C. Brewer" writes of what has happened to the prairies over the past hundred years. His characters loved the plains and abhored the land feeding frenzy of Front Range cities. Only Pueblo seemed to understand where that future was going. Now, in addition to a proposed gash across the prairie, we are living with the sewage of the Springs. The following are quotes from "Beyond the Sangres":

"In the distance the storm flashed lightning, and thundered on as it rolled over Edison on its way to Karval. They dismounted when they reached the highest sand hill. Zan hobbled the horses, took the saddles off and removed the pack from Gigi. He took a ground sheet from the pack and covered the saddles. They began to walk. Arlie, WD, and Snow raced out in front of Zan and Liette, searching for lizards and horned toads. It was quiet, except for the rumbling of the receding storm and the rain song of meadow larks. The sandhills were a potpourri of prairie folowes, infused with sage. The white rumps of pronghorns flashed in the sun as they caught sight of the Clays. Zan glanced back to the west. An ominous brown layer of smog inched out from Colorado Springs, like a fouled finger, feeling its way down the Valley of the Fountain. 'My God what a contrast to this place,' Zan thought."

..."The fingers of the brown cloud exhaling from Colorado Springs crept slowly, year by year, toward the Pocket. "The urban sprawl that spawns it ingests and digests the land as it spreads, leaving behind the necropolistic feces of its greed," Zan wrote.

In another section of "Beyond the Sangres" Brewer writes:

"Dust from the last windstorm and pollutants from the urban mass below hung in the air like stale breath. It burned the nose and lungs. A sea of lights in the Valley of the Black Squirrel glowed dimly, awash in the smust that lay over the land. The brown cloud hung between the heights of Antelope Rocks and the base of El Capitan, blotting out the lights on Cheyenne Mountain. The runway lights at Colorado Springs International Airport were faint orbs peering out of the gloom of the evening. Liette and Zan watched the lights of jet aircract blink off as the entered the brown cloud to land and wink on as they emerged from it on take off. The Death's head interchange leading from the freeway to the airport stared up with a vacuous leer.

"...A blurred string of lights flashed down the Valley of the Black Squirrel at two hundred miles an hour, as the Transit Authority's Interstate Metro raced from Cheyenne to Albuquerque."

"Front Range cities are like black hopes, sucking in the wealth, resources, and educated from the countryside--sucking in the lights of the future from the plains. Nothing will escape their attention until they are destroyed by their own varacious appetite, " Zan and Liette had written in "Blue Grama."

The Plains of Colorado may well be the last great wild place in Colorado.
Read "Beyond the Sangres" if you are concerned about the future of this great land.

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The pathetic part of all this is the unchecked and unplanned growth on the front range . . . and within just a few more years, the prairies east of the Springs and even as far South as Northern Pueblo County will look just like Aurora . . .

We're "Californicating" Colorado for the money that "Growth" brings . . . . .